By Stephan Zaat (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #2) on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 11:43 am: |
Message removed by moderator due to self promotion.
|
By Stephen Tise (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #1) on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 1:13 pm: |
Hi there, so whats the deal, have the Bonaire authorities come to there senses yet? I have been hoping for a couple of years that the old gaurd at Lac Bay would eventually invite kiteboarders back to the bay. I have no patience for the any of the arguments against kiting there as they are all excuses that generate from the windsurfer vs. kiter scenario. Having been to Bonaire for my honeymoon several years ago I was amazed at the beuty and serenity of the island. The windsurfing was fantastic, the people terrific. When I left the island for my return to Massachusetts I couldnt help but think of my next trip to the island and that next time I would get into some scuba also, little did I realise that once introduced to kiting I would never return to windsurfing, and consequently Bonaire. having had to explore other tropical locations for my anuual treks away from home I cant help but to try and emphasize the short sitedness of the island and its governing authorities, kiting can and shuld work at Lac Bay. Firstly, half of all the Bay is to shallow for windsurfing unless you are a beginner using a long board and a short fin, secondly having otherwise go over to Atlantis and be forced to kite in offshore winds is totally ridiculous and borders on negligence. While I am sure some find it realistic to do this I for one think it is reckless, I've been kiting for several years and have learned that the number one rule for kite safety is a pretty basic one, sail only in on or side shore conditions, period. At first I cut the the island officials some slack, kiting was new and the island old. I figured that as in the ski industry and its eventual complete acceptance of snowboarding it would be just a matter of time before people were allowed back to Lac. I figure its still just a matter of time, I mean how ignorant do you have to be to not see that windsurfing is on its way out and that kiting is growing exponentially, wake up Bonaire, please!
|
By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #372) on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 6:01 pm: |
I guess you never saw the injuries to the windsurfers ??? Lots of blood, lots of stitches .... or the damage done to the boards ???? Did not happen to me (I practice neither), but to several of our guests ... I am really not keen on seeing it again ..... it does not work both in Sorobon, they tried !!
|
By Stephen Tise (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #2) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 3:59 pm: |
bridgette you gotta be kidding, blood, stitches? while I have no doubts accidents can and will happen, I am also sure that this is not true and likely a harsh rumor that has been propegated by sellfish discontented sailboarders. If what you say is true I would appreciate a complete acoount of such an incident. Also I may add that after 4 years of kiting and another 15 of windsurfing before, injuries happen all the time. Personally i have been injured more as a result of windsurfing then kiting, injuries have included, stitches, contusions muscle pulls, broken bones and more. Granted I have never hurt anyone else doing either sport. As far as property damage please! people are responsible for damage they do and need to be held accountable. I cant speak for your guest that had issues with kiters but I think you should be a little more open minded, after all it is your bottom line that is being compromised, you and fellow proprieters of lodging and accomodations should have a meeting to discuss this and sort it out. I know that Belmare has had one less family to vacation there as a result and if any of my conversations with others such the Kontiki beach club of which I understand does not support your contentions has lost vacationers. The real threat here isnt kiters, it's the fact that kiters which are usually linked to windsurfers will go someplace else to vacation, if you havnt already seen this as a consequence then you soon will. I think people in your position should take a step back and think this thing through; you can either have your flat water windsurfing paradise that caters only to beginners and intermedites, (which will likely result in a complete disaster as the sport is shrinking exponentially as kiting becomes popular) or instead work with kiters to develop a world class kiting destination that accomodates both disciplines. The days of kiting being a fringe activity are over. You guys should develop a less subjective approach and do some homework, the Island should do a real objective anaylsis and try to understnd what it is they and yourself are doing, "dont cut off your nose to spite your face"
|
By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4253) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
Stephen,
|
By Stephen Tise (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #3) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 5:13 pm: |
Martin, I appreciate your thoughts. However, if you ask me... I think that the only safe places to kite are those with onshore or side-shore wind conditions, for that reason alone I think that Atlantis is better suited for diving. Offshore winds equal good visibility hence good diving, onshore usually mirky and cloudy hence poor diving, that reason alone could result in decent segregation of activities. With the exception of Lac which is onshore with good visibility but no divers....hmmm? seems the only real problem with Lac is the windsurfing. Here at home on Cape Cod, we all congregate together, with exception of a couple launches kiters and windsurfers get along fine, we share the water and the stoke of our sports. I agree there should be different zones and rules, not everything that windsurfers do should be done by kiters and vice versa. Basic sensibilities such as not flying kites on the beach, instead all launches should be assited and only in a certain areas and away from shore in the shallows, and people should drop their kites out on the water and not on shore when they come in. Also maybe some bouys that depict the kiting zone where windsurfers are welcome but need to be aware, otherwise the beginner windsurfers should have a safe and seperate zone within Lac Bay. I've been to Bonaire and can tell you that there is so much room, I mean if the rules were simply to kite only beyond the raft and before the reef this could work, there is tons of room out there especilly where the water gets deep but the winds are still onshore. If the officials in bonaire are concerned about being overrun by kiters they could establish specific hours to start, or require kiters who are not local to be required to pass a basic safety awarness test, and maybe to only allow those kiters who work somthing out with the proprietors of the windsurfing establishments. There are so many ways this could work I just cant fathom the the business that is being lost just because some have no will or lack the clarity to work this out rationally, I mean what the heck if it doesnt work end it, otherwise why not experiment, Bonaire is sitting on a treasure that only windsurfers can appreciate, thats pretty lame.
|
By Stephen Tise (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #4) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 5:22 pm: |
Hey Martin one last thing, the only reason you almost got hit by a kiter is because of the off shore conditions located at Atlantis, no kiter wants to go out further then he or she can swim and in off shore conditions its hard to consider the options of going to far out, also when we try a trick there is a likelyhood of crashing hence the rational for being close to shore. I can almost garantee that if Lac was opened to kiters the divers would have the rest of the island to themselves. Safety is my primary concern thats why i will not return to Bonaire unless i can sail safely, If things continue the way they are somebody is going to get killed, eaten, or otherwise spend the night on the open ocean.
|
By Stephen Tise (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #5) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 5:24 pm: |
Are you the Martin that has brought local windsurfing talent to the Cape, are you local?
|
By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4254) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 5:40 pm: |
Stephen, thank you for your long response. I think there should be a safe place where all the watersporters on Bonaire can live (or sport) next to each other. I think there is a task for the local government here. But, unfortunaly, they have other (more urgent) matters to attend to, like dealing with money problems at the local hospital and the fact the government has fallen last weekend. I think there will pass some more time before the kite / surf / dive issue will be dealt with.
|
By Stephen Tise (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #6) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 5:54 pm: |
Hi Martin, sorry to bother you again but the issue "government has fallen last weekend" what is that all about? it doesnt sound good. Unfortunately, I think all of this is linkled, money makes the world go around, one more reason to invite kiters back under a controlled probationary period, I just wish it could be sooner, this will be my third season I have had to contimplate going someplace else. If the officials in Bonaire could also contimplate setting up another venue, a small area that the plateu that Lac shares with the salt company could be 'gently' developed to be a world class kiting destination, why not create a lagoon near the salt works or otherwise use existing ones to kite in, I only wish I had the money and resources to show the government what it is they could create from nothing more than sand and water, maybe even establish a kiter tax that would supplement the hospital and other eco friendly initiatives.
|
By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4255) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 6:00 pm: |
No bother. Last weekend the Bonaire Government stepped out of the government of the Dutch Antilles due to the fact that the government didn't follow up on promises they made about financial support of the hospital or the airport. I bet more info can be found on www.amigoe.com. And IF the kiters would like to support Bonaire, why don't they start by buying the Dive tag, so the marine park gets more money to be developed... ;)
|
By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #373) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 6:08 pm: |
Stephen, I dont think I need to give you a detailed account of what happend to different of guests, if you think I am lying, that is your problem.
|
By Cyn Loo Hoo (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #15309) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 6:33 pm: |
Martin, a kiter within 15 feet (5 meters) of shore is TOO close...and I can't believe that the kiter did not see you and your dive group in the water...it's shallow there.
|
By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4256) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 6:45 pm: |
Cynde, ask Tom and Susan. Tom did have to dive real fast...
|
By Cyn Loo Hoo (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #15310) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 7:28 pm: |
Scary...
|
By Tom (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2828) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 8:01 pm: |
Accepting my share of blame for not having my safety sausage with me. None the less this is my recollection of what happened:
|
By roan jaspars (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #1) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 8:12 pm: |
Hi Martin,
|
By Becky Hauser (BonaireTalker - Post #24) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 9:02 pm: |
Tom, I have a stupid question.
|
By Tom (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2830) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 10:39 am: |
Becky, I would hope that he would.
|
By James Thomas (BonaireTalker - Post #49) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 12:02 pm: |
As a long time Bonaire diver I have a problem with the kiters mainly because the majority seem to be trying to learn the sport and have absolutely no control, they seem to just try and stay up and have not a clue what is around them nor could do anything about it if they did. We have seen kiters go out to sea, crash into the shore, almost crash into each other, and on one ocassion came very close to splitting the head of a diver. I know some kiters are very skilled and do have control but the others are dangerous. Also the kiters are spanning several dive sites, we just try and avoid them.
|
By Cyn Loo Hoo (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #15314) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 12:05 pm: |
Stephen, increase in tourism would not solve the current government problems (the hospital and the government crisis). I'm not going to expand..if you want to research the link Martin provided to the Amigo, or perhaps check the Bonaire Reporter for more information you will understand about the current situation.
|
By Stephen Tise (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #7) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 3:11 pm: |
I am not contradicting her account of the current political crisis on Bonaire, however I do have issue with the fact that she has said that people have been hurt by kiters, kiters have damaged property and that in general her position is to bad for the kiters. She obviously has little tolerance for kiters and instead believes she and the rest of the regulars should be able to call the shots. I contest her claims and believe it is a a story born out of fear and her proprietary view that kiters are dangerous and she doesnt like us. I'm sure more tourism would do little to alleviate the current situaton relative to the hospital but I am also sure it would likely do more good than harm. I think this whole conversation has liitle to do with anything more then selfish, self centered, and intirely bogus arguments. Bonaire and its residents will always differ on issues on the island, however I imagine that everyone agrees that more eco friendly visitors is the goal, and that development should be carefully controlled with an emphasis on environmental concerns etc. The fact that Bonaire has a world class location such as Lac Bay and that there is a sport that is exponentially growing such as kiting and that the authorities have basically turned there back on a situation that would bring in lots of revenue is ludicrous. FYI, if Lac was opened to kiters I think you would be very surprised at the potential it holds, infact I bet it would surpass all revenue created by boardsailers within one season and likely double it within a couple of years without compromising the boardsailing or any other activity within the bay. Lastly, what about the kids? the Bonairian youngsters were kicking ass in windsurfing and I'm sure they would be equally good at kiting, but no, the officials think they are doing everyone a favor by avoiding this and that things are fine the way they are, not. This season was the first in several years that the Bonaire crew decided that it wasnt feasible to come to the USA for our annual contest, why? becuase there is no contest, why?, because there isnt the critical mass or enthusiasm to support a windsurfing contest, why, because kiting has become the dominant sport and every boardsailer I know with the exception of very few, has become a kiter and has no intention of going back. If you dont believe me speak with one of your own who now lives on Bonaire, I'm sure you all know Ann, she knows the current situation here on Cape Cod and will likely vouch for the fact that most of the old guard here has gone over to kiting.
|
By Cyn Loo Hoo (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #15324) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 3:39 pm: |
I don't think that Brigitte said she didn't like kiters, I believe she said it was easier to "separate" them (i.e., boarders, kiters, divers) for everyone's safety. Did you read Tom's post above and his experience?
|
By Cyn Loo Hoo (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #15325) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 3:43 pm: |
She obviously has little tolerance for kiters and instead believes she and the rest of the regulars should be able to call the shots.
|
By Kelly Baum (GDLW) (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3454) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 3:50 pm: |
Stephen, I feel that if you would consider toning down your in-your-face criticism a bit, you may find others who agree with you; or at the very least would be interested in getting more information to make an informed decision as to how they feel about this particular subject. However, when you say things like, "I think this whole conversation has liitle to do with anything more then selfish, self centered, and intirely bogus arguments" you do little to help your cause. Sometimes when people feel personally attacked, they will defend themselves when I can only assume that isn't the purpose of this discussion.
|
By Cyn Loo Hoo (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #15326) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 4:05 pm: |
Well said Kelly, thank you There is a lot of kiteboarding on the left coast, and it is fun to watch (from shore, not in the water with one coming directly at you) ;-)
|
By Kelly Baum (GDLW) (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3455) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 4:30 pm: |
Cynde, the first kiteboarder I ever saw was with you in Puerto Rico, sitting out on your little verandah. It was so cool to watch. But yes, I suppose it would be a whole lot less cool to watch it coming straight at you. lol
|
By Stephen Tise (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #8) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 4:43 pm: |
Kelly, I wish I could share your optimism. Frankly, I'm just a little put off by some of the things people say. I cant speak to specifics relative to Bonaire but I can say that there is no shortage of kite bashing people in the Bonaire community. I take issue with people that fabricate stories or otherwise imbellish them to their taste. I agree my tone sucks and that I should step back and sometimes think about how this stuff comes across but really, it's my opinion that Bonaire has done little in the face of such opportunity because some like the status quo and would rather keep Bonaire as they want it. No place have I heard a decent articulate rational other then accounts of what happened (or didnt) in the past, and that the decision to ban kiting at Lac was made without objectivity or any critical thought. To me kiting is similar the Alpine sports industry, snowboarding was a renegade activity once and is now the savior of the entire industry. Granted it took some time and only in incremental steps but nobody in the business will say that snowboarding has been bad for the industry; even at Ajax mountain in Aspen, the last hold out for skiing only has now introduced snowboarding, why?, revenue that they were losing to other resorts. For Bridgette to say they tried is weak, I mean if you call allowing kiters of any level, without any rules, and without any particular area or specific allowed times "trying" all I can say is thats lame. Today kiters are better, kites are safer, and beginners are required to adhere to specific rules and are required to be accountable. it seems that there is an all or nothing attitude in Bonaire, why not as in other areas allow kiting only in the afternoon say between 3pm and 6pm and only beyond the raft? Unfortnately Bridgette and some others seem to think that kiters would harm there business instead of helping, this is not the case and I would think that anybody who owns, operates or otherwise depends on travelers for there income would come to the same conclusion.
|
By Stephen Tise (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #9) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 4:54 pm: |
Sorry that too seems a little harsh, really I'm not that bad..lol
|
By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #374) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 5:12 pm: |
Stephen, some of your comments are absolut outragous. Before making certain comments of what is happening at Sorobon you should know what happend in the past and not dismiss automatically what somebody else says. Knowledge is the key not talk !
|
By Cyn Loo Hoo (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #15329) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 5:22 pm: |
Stephen, I'm afraid to say that you are not doing much to help the reputation of kiteboarders, or the industry. These are your first posts to this board, you provide little information in your profile about yourself, and you are not polite (you attract more bees with honey than vinegar) I cant speak to specifics relative to Bonaire but I can say that there is no shortage of kite bashing people in the Bonaire community.
|
By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #375) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 5:25 pm: |
By the way, Stephen, I guess you read what Tom wrote about the eye contact between diver and kitesurfer and how the kitesurfer reacted? Typical what the windsurfers told me in the past ... looks like some kitesurfers have still not learned how to behave in contact with others.
|
By Stephen Tise (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #10) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 5:57 pm: |
Bridgette, I dont think anything I have said is outrageous. I can only assume that accidents can happen and that some may have indeed occured however to say that all avenues have been explored is not true. May I suggest a couple of things that I hope would avoid such circumstances; Firstly, if people had to sign somthing as a condition of use that would help, Secondly, if kiting there was interdependent on particapation with the vendors at Lac then people would be much more respectful and accountable. Nobody would want their privledges revoked during their vacation and its likely that this alone would solve a lot of issues; Thirdly, I think that the biggest issue is the control of the Bay. One of the best things about kiting is that you can bring your own equipment, no doubt this has had something to do with the current climate at Lac. Unfortunately this could result in a conflict of interest with the vendors there, I would suggest that kiters be required to register with one of the two and pay a reasonable fee for access and in turn get assisted landing and launching of their kites, this would prevent people from "crashing" the party at Lac and disrupting the apple card that has existed before kiting. No doubt some would avoid lac if a fee was required and that may be good thing. Also if people were required to demonstrate basic competency or to posess a certification level before being allowed on the Bay that would prevent much of the headaches. No doubt kiting has had its share of growing pains but much has been done in other areas to avoid some of the issues that were present in the early years, why not learn from others by establishing rules and require people to be accountable by having them sail only out of the established vendor areas.
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #11) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 6:12 pm: |
I'm not sure I agree with the paraphrase honey vs. vinegar. I seem to have ruffled some feathers and that was my intent. I wasnt expecting to get any support from the community there, instead I have got more of the same old crap that I predicted. Bridgette, Cynde, I'm not going to pull punches, I'm sick of this pervasive intolerant stance you have taken. I have for three years bited my tongue, hoped and prayed that thngs would change but they havnt and given that you rather stick your head in the sand then to take a longer look is sad. I hoped for a constructive dialogue but instead have had no exchange of ideas and have had to listen to dribble. If I reflect badly on the kiting community I am very sorry however somethings are better said from outside the box then from within. There are plenty of opinions out there, please excuse me for sharing mine.
|
By Cyn Loo Hoo (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #15330) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 6:42 pm: |
Stephen, not once did I say that kiteboarding should not be allowed on Bonaire. I said that I thought that kiteboarding, windsurfing AND diving should all be allowed. The problem is safety (again, go back up and read Tom's post...and he is not the first one to encounter this problem, you seem to be sticking your head in the sand by not even acknowledging it). If you frequent this board, or do a search, you will see many many discussions on the topic. I don't have my head in the sand.
|
By Freddie (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #6865) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 7:58 pm: |
I have tried to stay out of this but I have never heard of such an arrogant ,self centered egotistical person in my life!! STEPHEN, IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT YOU SEE AND READ ON BT GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!
|
By Glen Reem (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2229) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 11:08 pm: |
Stephen,
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #12) on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 10:25 am: |
I find it amusing that people are so put off by me, all I did was to inquire and express my opinion. I feel my approach was reasonable and balanced. This conversation deteriorated only when Bridgette thought she could dismiss my inquiry with little more thought then going to the bathroom. I mean whats going on here, I not only express my opinion but suggest scenarios that may work, instead of a dialogue all I get is invalidated and insulted. Freddie you fool. How has my ego gotten involved in this? Self centered? I'm not the one ivlidating anything. I havnt said that kiting should be allowed without considerable thought, mutual concensus, and only after a probationary period. If I had a month or two I would love to come to Bonaire however I don't and if I did I would likely go someplace else as a result of the kiting restrictions. Any how, I'm sure that would suit many of you just fine; which is typical of the NIMBY attitude that is prevelent in and around Lac. I'm sure I wont ever win a popularity (or spelling) contest as a result of my comments but I hardly think they warrant the level of contempt that I am hearing. Lastly, I think it is important that I say I dont speak for all kiters, and my intentions were certainly not to alienate them any more then you all all ready have.
|
By Cyn Loo Hoo (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #15340) on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 12:01 pm: |
Stephen, Bridgette, Cynde, I'm not going to pull punches, I'm sick of this pervasive intolerant stance you have taken
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #13) on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 1:27 pm: |
Welcome back to the room Cynde. In fairness Cynde you are correct, my tone is a little harsh and I apologise if it has been to inflamatory, really. My demeanor is not as it sounds in my posts and I'm sure if we were in the same room we could rationally discuss this, unfortunately forums do have a tendency to distort communications. I think what is so disapointing is that nobody sees the glass as half full, only half empty. I would think that there would be incredible pressure from economic interest within Bonaire to consider how kiting can be re-introduced to Lac without the problems that occured in the beginning years, if done with thoughtful and deliberate attention it could be in the interest of all concerned, especialy the vendors, lodgers and residents of Bonaire. Unfortunately Bonaire does not have the geography that is condusive to kiting anywhere else other then Lac, that is why this is an issue. All the arguments I have heard against kiting at Lac seem on the face to be unfair, biased, and hence intolerant. I'll leave this for you to think about: if kiting was allowed the vacation bookings relative to watersports at lac would in my opinion double immediately, windsurfers would come back in droves because the kiter(s) in the family (usually the dad) would consider Bonaire instead of dismissing it. I'm sure at this point it's relatively obvious that windsurfing has taken a huge hit as a result of kiting, as a windsurfer and kiter I know all to well the changes taking place at sailing locations all over Cape Cod and elsewhere, those beaches that dont allow kiting have fewer then half the people that use to attend, those that do allow kiting have become the most popular for windsurfers, kiters, and spectators. Fortunately on cape Cod there are plenty of place to both windsurf and kite either together or seperate, unfortunately Bonaire has one spot that is condusive and appropriate for kiting; if people want to see Bonaire grow as a windsurfing and kiting destination you will all have to work together otherwise you are doomed to a fate of dwinding windsurfers which will result in hard times for the vendors at Lac and the ultimate disaster, lose them and have Lac taken over by big money and private interest, it's your call Bonaire.
|
By Kelly Baum (GDLW) (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3466) on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 1:31 pm: |
Stephen, I'm actually not sure that anyone DISAGREES with you. I think most everyone wants all the divers, kiters, windsurfers, etc. to be happy and provide revenue for Bonaire. However, I remain constant in my opinion that when you insult folks right off the bat, no one listens and no one wants to take your side of ANY argument. Right, wrong, or indifferent.
|
By Vince DePietro (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #122) on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 4:59 pm: |
Before reading this thread I must say I was neutral on this subject..I go to Bonaire primarily to dive (eating, enjoying the weather & friendly people are secondary & only enhance the Bonairean experience).But after reading it, IF Stephen represents the Kiteboarders (And I sincerely hope he doesn't), frankly I'd want nothing to do with them or their ilk..
|
By Jeroen (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #4) on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 10:22 pm: |
To get back on:
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #14) on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 11:30 am: |
Agreed, there are so many different ways that kiting could be included within Lac. Vince, I understand that most tourism comes from the amazing diving around Bonaire however I am a kiter first and a wannabe diver second, as are others. If kiting was allowed at Lac I would likely spend considerable time there and pursue both.
|
By Jack Chalk (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #221) on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 3:22 pm: |
I would like to weigh in on this discussion. I am neither a windsurfer nor a kiteboarder, however I am a diver and a resident of the island I love and have lived on for the past 18 years. I also enjoy immensely watching both windsurfing and kiteboarding. For those of you who know me, I don't think they make a kite or a windsurf board big enough to carry me...HA!
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #15) on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 4:04 pm: |
Jack, thank you very much for weighing in on the situation. I think you are 100% correct about the politics. As an island resident and a non-windsurfer or kiter I think your position is neutral, objective and constructive. I would be curious if you know who makes the decisions and if there is a chance that this can be worked out. I dont know how it works in Bonaire, is there a island council, or do decisions about Lac Bay get determined by some other process or entity?
|
By seb (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2475) on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 8:00 pm: |
Jack, thanks for weighing in.
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #16) on Thursday, December 1, 2005 - 8:11 am: |
Sorry I dont agree, how is it I will learn more from asking fewer question? I'm less interested in question then I am in answers, so if you have a better way for me to understand do tell. Are all BT'ers this thin skinned? all I have done is inquire, made suggestions and listened. I think people need to not only understand the situation, but understand that there are certain people on Bonaire who do not want kiteboarding in Lac, I think it is fair that people see whos interest that opinion it reflects. I am sorry if I offend, however I dont think civil exchange of ideas through a dialogue regardless of how uncomfortable it is, is bad.
|
By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #19) on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 10:34 am: |
The only fact that once happened is that somebody attached his line the wrong way and the kite ended up on a tent which was there because some people were having a barbeque there....The day after that happened the ban was there! The rest of the stories are rumors. There is no way anybody was hurt with kiteboarding. I think it is more dangerous to walk on the boulevard when somebody is spinning his motorwheels!!!
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #17) on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 3:05 pm: |
Jeroen, can you tell me if anything about the process or authority that was responsible for the ban, specifically who is it that calls the shots on Bonaire? Lastly, I was wondering if there have been any discussions with authorities about re-introducing kiting and do you have any suggestions of what can be done to get kiting back into the Bay?
|
By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #20) on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 3:15 pm: |
The only people that can do that are the bonairian kids, that's what I think. By banning kiting in lac, the government has taken the opportunaty of learning kiteboarding away from the kids, I think that's a very bad thing! I really don't know how to get it back. Maybe just go kiting and fight it in court. Let the judge decide what the difference is between kiteboarding and windsurfing!!! I think they should see these two sports as the same because they are in many ways!
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #18) on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 7:26 am: |
I also think the Bonarian kids are missing out. I have only been to Bonaire once and have met Ron, Chris, and Sam on several occasions here on Cape Cod. After windsurfing with those guys I can only imagine what they and the rest of the crew would be capable of if they kited. Unfortunately they are not coming here for the competitions anymore as windsurfing has become less popular as a result of kiting. Do you know any of those guys? Have any of the kids tried kiting? is there a shop that hooks them up? - or no?
|
By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #21) on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 10:53 am: |
Welcome to the BKKI!! Good idea!
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #19) on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 1:00 pm: |
Sounds good, I'll speak with some friends of mine at Best kiteboarding, there into this sort of thing. Meanwhile why dont you get a picture of a couple of kids flying kites with there empty pockets hangin out. Maybe we can approach the authorities with a proposal to let the kids kite after school and within the safe confines of Lac Bay. May I suggest we get the kids well into the water before launching any kites, lets make sure we dont get any of them hurt, safety should be paramount. Also parents should be required to sign a waiver or something.
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #20) on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 5:03 pm: |
Jeroen, I have good news! I have spoken with Jeff Gansender at Best, he is interested in helping. He also tells me that there is a kitesurfing school on the island that is sponsored by Best, would that be your friend? We should set a time to discuss the potential of the BKKI, and see how we can put a program together. In the meantime can you find out who the gentleman was that use to accompany the Bonaire kids when they traveled here to Cape Cod; find him, tell him that a Cape Codder from the states wants to help get the Bonaire kids on kites and back to Cape Cod for next years "King of the Cape" which will likely include both kiting and windsurfing. Anyways, hope its windy and warm there, its so cold here....I wonder what others on this forum have to say? will you folks support the kids?
|
By Steve Elliott (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #1) on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 5:32 pm: |
I have been reading this thread for awhile and feel that some issues have not been discussed that have a bearing on the viability of kiteboarding in Lac Bay. It seems that most of the discussion is from people who are kiters, and people who are divers. So the discussion is framed by two factors: First, the kiter advocates are biased to their sport as expected. The other contributors are mostly non-participants and therefore do not know what is involved in making a kiteboarding area work for everyone.
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #21) on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 7:04 pm: |
Steve thank you very much for input. I agree completely that there needs to be a well planned strategy that will insure that everyones interest is addressed. I welcome your inquiry and think that it is a breath of fresh air. Firstly, I can only make suggestions, some maybe useless others I hope constructive.
|
By jay odonnell (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #1) on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 8:14 pm: |
I'm a 4-time windsurfer/diver visitor to bonaire who would not return if lac bay was opened up for kiting as it would be too dangerous for me and my windsurfer girlfriend. If the issues raised by Steve Elliot are seriously examined by someone knowledgeable in both sports the only conclusion that could be drawn it that the amount of physical space required to rig,launch, and sail kites makes it impossible for both to co-exist in Lac Bay. Kiters require huge amounts of space to rig, launch, and land, and when underway require wide berth to avoid line entanglement with windsurfers. The width of the sailing lanes just offshore from JibeCity/Rogers is not sufficiently wide for both... and anyone suggesting otherwise hasn't sailed the area, is in-denial, or has an agenda. If someone was to propose that kiters and windsurfers segregate into upper-reaches (near the reef) or close in-shore reaches near the launch, that would improve it somewhat, but fails to consider how the sailors/kiters get to/from the launch to the designated "lanes". The situation is made worse when new kiters are learning ... imagine a new kiter getting involuntarily launched when near the Sorobon resort dock, JibeCity launch, or Rogers, and crashing into whatever lies downwind ... buildings, beach furniture, people. Guaranteed this will happen sooner or later. Beginning windsurfers who would be clueless about kite entanglement are going to be hit or entagled in lines ... guaranteed. I carry a kite line cutter because of two close calls.
|
By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #22) on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 11:20 pm: |
There is allready a plan that has all the 'rules' in it to kite safe in Lac Bay. I am really sure that there is no problem with windsurfers if the kiters (as it was) stay downwind of the windsurfing area!!! Too bad that other people do not see that. I'm getting a little tired of the defense I need to give to my sport. It wil be perfect if kiting is alowed before 10h and after 17h....only downwind of the windsurfers. They stay upwind. No problem. Plenty of space and everybody is happy....
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #22) on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 9:19 am: |
good morning all, Jay I think the only thing that can be done to to address your concerns is to limit the amount of kiters on the water. Knowing the layout as I do I would think that Lac could support approximately 12 kiters and within the lanes you speak of. In the event that kiting was to be restricted to downwind and in the deep water off the mangroves there is likely space for more. Also establishing hours for kiters as I stated previously should give people who dont want to windsurf amongst the kiters an opportunity to do that. Lastly, I think everyone needs to understand that any effort to allow kiting is at the heart an effort to give the Bonarians a place to kite that is safe and condusive to learning etc. I have heard a lot from people who visit the island and enjoy it very much however I think that any policies created for Lac should address and include those opportunities that can provide the best opportunities for the residents of Bonaire, there is no doubt in my mind that Bonaire has great local talent and that Bonaire should be represented in future pro tours. If in the end only residents of Bonaire could use Lac for both windsurfing and kiting that would be fine with me, I think whats most important is that the island provide the resource at Lac to their community before addressing concerns from outside.
|
By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #23) on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 2:40 pm: |
Agreed, tnx Stephan, wish there were more openmind people like you on this Island, hihi.
|
By jay odonnell (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #2) on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 4:19 pm: |
Stephan, I think the only safe and feasible option to accommodate both sports in LacBay is what Jeroen proposes, which maintains separation. I suggested the "lanes" approach only to illustrate the problems that occur when both sports occupy the same place, and do not believe lanes would be safe in LacBay. Also the idea of having the narrow beach between JibeCity and Rogers covered with inflated kites and lines would be unworkable if that is what you were proposing for the vendor areas, unless those businesses dropped windsurfing and catered exclusively to kiting (and I would stop coming to Bonaire).
|
By jay odonnell (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #3) on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 5:43 pm: |
For those readers who are unfamiliar with some of the kiting safety issues I reference above, I suggest you do a google search on kitemare, defined as "A Kitemare is when the kite tries to kill you, but you survive to tell the tale". Some sobering but realistic reading for anyone considering the sport, or it's consequences. One of my windsurfing buddies in utah lost one of his friends to a kitemare last july.
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #23) on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 7:17 pm: |
Hey Jay, I dont think I have down played the potential dangers by suggesting that kiting be allowed. Yes seperation as Jay has mentioned would lessen the chances of an accident with other windsurfers yet it would also put the kiters in closer proximity to the beach. I think that limiting the number of kiters would be the best way, most of the windsurfers that venture out to the reef are skilled enough that they can easily sail with kiters, once out, there is sufficient space for all. When I was there it was at the height of windsurfings popularity, it was in April and there was all of 4 or five guys out there spread out over the entire bay leaving ample room for many more kiters and windsurfers. People, what is the big deal here? allowing kiting under the controls discussed here would be fine, and would do a lot for the locals and vendors alike, lighten up and let Lac fourish under kiting.
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #24) on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 7:25 pm: |
Jay said,
|
By jay odonnell (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #4) on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 8:05 pm: |
Stephan,
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #25) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 8:05 am: |
I think there may be some confusion. My suggestion is that kites get launched approximately 100 meters out into the bay, at or beyond the the Sorobon raft. As a result of the shallow water I see no reason why people couldnt walk way out and launch from a very safe distance form everything. As an adjunct to this I see the vendors employee working as kite assitant as they do the windsurfers. A person would simply layout their lines behind the vendor areas, wrap them back on the bar with a "turbo launcher" they would then inflate their kites, attach them to the lines while they are still wrapped around the bar you would then walk way out with a vendors employee such as Roan who would walk the kite out with the kiter and hold the kite while the kiter unwound his or her lines and then launch from a very safe distance from everything in a minimum of a two feet of water. When coming back in kiters should be required to self land and retrieve their kites or tap on their heads and wait for assistance to come out beyond the dock (I assume that it is still there?)
|
By Steve Elliott (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #2) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 1:07 pm: |
Stephen, When I'm in Bonaire, I usually sail up between the reef and the raft, to get away from the furball downwind. Up there you have to be mindful of the nudies, because the often snorkle along the reef. I predict that you will get resistance from them.
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #26) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 2:00 pm: |
Steve said
|
By Steve Elliott (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #3) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 2:05 pm: |
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I understand that you weren't talking about limiting windsurfers. You were talking about limiting kiters. My comment that this is unworkable is from a kiter standpoint. If I were a kiter deciding where to go on vacation, and I knew in Bonaire I may have to wait due to kiter count limitations, I would not go there.
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #27) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 2:32 pm: |
Yeah but what if you lived there? As far as being a guest on vacation, I have suggested that unless you are local that there should be a limit and that all kiters with exception of the local guys would be required to pay to access the bay through the vendors. This way I could plan a trip and expect to be able to access the water throughout my vacation, just as I would upgrade my windsurf rental to include top of the line equipment; which there is only so much to go around.
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #28) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 2:43 pm: |
Jeroen, we need to speak with Elvis about the potential of the BKKI, I understand he is not very into kiting but as with the windsurfing he may be able to help coordinate and distribute gear to those who could not otherwise afford it. My friend on the island says that it would be best if you were to approach him from the afterschool perspective, let him know that you and I would like to help the kids get into kiting and that there may be a real opportunity to establish a long term program for the future. If he isnt into it then we can go it alone, but something tells me Elvis is a smart guy and will recognise an opportunity when he sees it.
|
By jay odonnell (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #5) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 3:31 pm: |
Stephen said "I think there may be some confusion.."
|
By Steve Elliott (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #4) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 4:41 pm: |
I have to respond to Stephen's last post to me. I don't see where you get off about me being "the most intolerant contingent of windsurfers" based on my comments. I'm trying to add _realistic_ discussion to your ideas. I'm not totally against kiters in Lac Bay, but you'll have to sell me on it. I think I would object to it if it were to affect me personally such that I would no longer enjoy myself there.
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #29) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 4:43 pm: |
All I was saying is that it is only the "intlerant windsurfers" not "all windsurfers" BTW, I do both. I know many windsurfers that I sail with regulalrly and none of them have a problem with kiters, infact we have fun boosting in and around them while they blast by and continuously use us as jibe makers.
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #30) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 4:50 pm: |
I have never met a visitor to a beach that did not like to watch kiting, infact I have met several people who come regulalrly to watch and at the age of 42 I now have good friends in there 70's, they help launch, they take pics and regularly participate in the after session party.
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #31) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 4:55 pm: |
"add _realistic_ discussion to your ideas."
|
By jay odonnell (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #6) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 5:21 pm: |
I continue to have difficulty seeing how putting kiting back in LacBay will be an economic boost for a variety of reasons:
|
By Steve Elliott (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #5) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 5:31 pm: |
Stephen,
|
By Steve Elliott (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #6) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 5:41 pm: |
Stephen,
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #32) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 6:59 pm: |
I wouldnt go as far to say that windsurfing is dieing, all I have tried to suggest is that the market has reached its limit as kiting will also. As far as kitings limited potential revenue contribution, be real, if kiting was allowed as it should it would contribute as much as the windsurfing easily. Bonaires shallow water, butter flat conditions, and moderate breezes are a kiters dream come true, truely perfect. I was there for two weeks, I had maybe three 6.0 days windsurfing the rest were 8m days, long hot days. I windsurfed alone.
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #33) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 7:02 pm: |
I wouldnt go as far to say that windsurfing is dieing, all I have tried to suggest is that the market has reached its limit as kiting will also. As far as kitings limited potential revenue contribution, be real, if kiting was allowed as it should it would contribute as much as the windsurfing easily. Bonaires shallow water, butter flat conditions, and moderate breezes are a kiters dream come true, truely perfect. I was there for two weeks, I had maybe three 6.0 days windsurfing the rest were 8m days, long hot days. I windsurfed alone.
|
By Yana girl (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #392) on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 9:56 am: |
Steve E.
|
By Kent Kune (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #1) on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 5:38 pm: |
I don't think I can add much to this discussion because pretty much everything has been said and discussed but I'd still like to give my opinion so here goes :-)
|
By william bentz (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #2) on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 12:12 am: |
don't go to Bonaire to kite.....
|
By Steve Elliott (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #10) on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 1:57 am: |
So, your idea for their best location is to ban nudists, windsurfers, and um... children??? Now there's an idea with lots of potential.
|
By Gerd Stecker (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #1) on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 7:23 am: |
YES william - PLEASE STAY AWAY - we don't need these intolerant egoistic people here!
|
By Hendrik Wuyts (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #10) on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 7:37 am: |
Freak show or no Freak show, Lac or no Lac bay, kitesurfing is just the ultimate sports imaginable.
|
By Susan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1487) on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 7:54 am: |
Um, William - Bonaire is a relatively conservative island. The only place where nudity is allowed is Sorobon.
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #34) on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 1:43 pm: |
Once again the Bonaire talkers have heard from another disgruntled kiter. William I agree with you completely. The people and authorities have no clue what it is they are doing. Banning kiting before any due diligence has been done relative to a compromise is ridiculous. Why not at a minimium creat hours for kiters at Lac Bay. If they were to open Lac up after 2-3 pm that would be enough for me and others; we could resume our passion for Bonaire and contribute to the economic engine that is Lac bay. I'd like to remind all you anti kiters that the only intolerant people are you, you have banned us -remember. I feel badly for the kids in Bonaire, your ignorance has cost them dearly. FYI, there is no pro windsurfing tour anymore, racing and freestyle competitions are spotty and no longer offer any carat to attend. Kiting is the future for professonal wind and water sports, so next time you look out at Lac bay just remember the kids you have screwed, profanity removed by moderator you NIMBY's you have no clue.
|
By Steve Elliott (BonaireTalker - Post #11) on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 1:55 pm: |
Stephen,
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #35) on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 5:16 pm: |
Steve you are a Post edited due to violation of TOS. Name calling is not allowed on Bonaire Talk. Please observe the Terms of Service. Talk about myopic, you sir have absolutely no clue. Firstly, I am a windsurfer also. I have twenty years of jumping and jibing and can likely sail circles around you. I have been kiting for about 5 years and while I can hold my own I am very, very far from being a pro. It is ovious that you along with your NIMBY friends are trying very hard to hold on to the last vestage of windsurfing segregation, you are doing it at the peril of native Boanarians and if you cared at all about the community in which you speak of you would understand the effect of your detrimental and reckless opinion. I very much miss Bonaire, both Lac bay and the friendly culture that is Bonaire. If you understood the mission of Elvis (who you likely dont even know of) you would understand the potential of kiting within the context of the young people. You and your pals have done a great job screwing over the interest of native Bonarians, kids who I have met such as Ronald -AKA Ro or Chris or Sammy all have showed great talent and potential to represent Bonaire on a world pro tour. It is unfortunate that windsurfing no longer commands the critical mass it once did and has resulted in the kids from Bonaire not coming here to the states to compete. Last I looked kitesurfing is expanding, new disciplines are being developed every season, sponsorships and rep deals are there for the taking. You no doubt have not tried to kite, you lack the spine and mind to explore the best sport ever. Its truly sad that you folks cant find a compromise and have instead buried your heads in the sand, I hope you choke on it.
|
By Steve Elliott (BonaireTalker - Post #12) on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 6:59 pm: |
Tise:
|
By Susan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1488) on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 7:33 pm: |
I may be wrong, because I think William may have had spittle drooling down the sides of his mouth when he first posted this, but I think he objected to the children being exposed (no pun intended) to nudists.
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #36) on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 6:26 am: |
Steve you are correct, I do need a session bad, tomorrow I leave for the Outer Banks, I wish it was Bonaire. I wasnt trying to impress you with jumping and jibing, I have more in my repetoire then that trust me; not that I am a big freestyle guy I'll take open water any day. I'm not sure there are many advanced windsurfers hitting Lac everyday, the flat water is nice for a day or two but by then I'm bored out of my mind. That is likely the primary reason that I think Bonaire is much better suited for kiting then it is for windsurfing. Personally I dont give a crap about the nudist, I enjoy windsurfing, snorkeling, scuba, kayaking etc My only issue in Bonaire is the anti kite attitude. Both your comments and other critical voices I have heard about the inclusion of kiting within Lac are so bias that its obvious that there is little objectivity left. A little lesson in demographics in case everyone thinks all kiters are long haired teen punks with foul mouths; I sir, am 42 years old, I'm an architect and father of two. I have commited myself to sailing for the last twenty plus years, I've invested in property near my passion and will continue to do so. Lastly, most my friends who kite are either 2 or 3 years younger or older then I. I pay for our family vacations, I pick (to some extent) the destination. Bonaire should be on the short list however I have not been able to return to Bonaire to particapate in the diverse activities that Bonaire offers. This is all a result of the intolerant people that govern lac. They have demonstrated their limited imagination and continue to follow a path that will only hurt themselves, and more importantly the people on the Island that care more about where I rent, where I get my food, beer etc. Their is more going on here then just the activities at Lac, does anyone else get this besides me?
|
By Steve Elliott (BonaireTalker - Post #13) on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 6:16 pm: |
Have fun at Outer Banks. Wish I were going too. We're in our 5th week of solid rain in Cali. No end in sight. My only sessions have been storm winds, and I'm getting kinda tired of them.
|
By william bentz (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #5) on Saturday, April 8, 2006 - 6:45 pm: |
my only real point is that kiteboarding should be allowed in Lac Bay...
|
By Jeff Simon (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #5) on Monday, April 10, 2006 - 4:20 pm: |
I did not read the whole thread on this...but it seems like the same old same old. Every year at about this time I start to plan a vacation and Bonaire is on the short list....but again it loses because of inexplicable inability to find a workable compromise that would create a safe place for novice kitesurfing. I have been to Bonaire several times and will return again, but with diving and kiting high on my fun list this constant battle over use of the wind and the sea is a big turn off. Maybe you could fill a few more AJ flights if you encouraged kiting...it's a growing sport from my observations....and very welcome in Cozumel.
|
By Pete Peterson (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #1) on Saturday, September 2, 2006 - 12:42 pm: |
What the heck, let's reactivate the carnage!
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #38) on Thursday, October 5, 2006 - 4:16 pm: |
OK, so its been about year since I started this thread and yes once again I'm now considering my options for a winter trip with the family. My guess is that kiting in lac Bay is still off-limits and as a result i will have to once again (third time now) have to consider another location. If things have changed or are being considered for change I would like to know, does anyone have an idea on the developments of the situation? hasnt anyone considered a proposal to get kiters into lac on a trial basis; either afternoon hours or the creation of a zone? At this point it must be getting pretty obvious to Elvis and the crew that windsurfers are having to share the water everywhere, why not in Bonaire. I sail with poleborders everytime I ride and have never had a problem in five seasons, all the bogus horror stories are just that, bogus. Cmon Bonaire, your sitting on perfect kiting territory and only a marginal windsurfing destination, lets work together and get a safe and popular spot for all to ride. wheres the outrage? lets get the kids goin, the PKRA is the next step in the evolution of professional water sports, tell me, are there any rational voices and a forum to be heard on Bonaire..... Curacao is looking pretty good...
|
By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2942) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 6:24 am: |
Bogus horror stories? I don't think so.
|
By Susan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1737) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 9:02 am: |
That statement seemed pretty cavalier to me too, Seb. If Stephen bothered to read OTHER threads than his own he'd have seen first person scary experiences.
|
By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #27) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 12:32 pm: |
Nobody is gonna be hit if the divers are just doing what they should do like in the rest of the world!!!
|
By Glen Reem (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2504) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 1:22 pm: |
"Nobody is gonna be hit if the divers are just doing what they should do like in the rest of the world!!!"
|
By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #503) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 1:46 pm: |
Jeroen, with your posting you show your disregard of the rest of the people living or visiting Bonaire. All the stories written on BT in the different threads don't even show the size of the problem, there are soooooo many more people complaining - divers, snorklers, beach goers.... why don't you start in educating the kite surfers about the dive flag, the sausage etc ??? Why don't you start educating the kite surfers which beach then may enter and come out ? Why don't you educate them not to put divers and snorklers in danger at p.ex. Pink Beach ? Pink Beach Iwhich is a public beach !) is off limit for kite surfers, or don't you know or care ?????
|
By Alex Brown (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #149) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 3:23 pm: |
I will no doubt regret getting involved here (again), but...
|
By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #28) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 5:49 pm: |
I'm just getting sick of people talking about an issue without comming to the beach and have a closer look at the issue....when they have done that, they will see that there is no problem at all....about the attitude....sorry, I'm not even gonna go into that. I'm gonna quit lookin' at this forum now. Good luck complaning about kitesurfing without having enough knowledge of it!
|
By Jeff Simon (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #8) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 5:56 pm: |
First let me say that the several times I have visited Bonaire I loved it. I and two of my family got our C-Cards through Toucan. I have considered Bonaire for the "Big Family Trip" twice and gone elsewhere because of this level of hysteria about kiteboarding (one of our passions). We used to be bigger into windsurfing and have dropped quite a few bucks at Jibe City and Windsurf Place on past trips...we (actually the kids) have moved on to Kiteboarding. When we were all novices we sat for several hours and watched Sky and some others amaze us at Atlantis...before the bus days. We were not good enough at that time to risk the offshore winds....but we went home stoked. Can't wait to get good enough for Bonaire...diving, kiteboarding, a little windsurfing for the retro touch, flamingos, donkeys, good food, laid back atmosphere.....all good. NO NOT ALL GOOD. I'm gonna kill or be killed by a kite! Not hurt, not freaked, but killed! PLEEESE.
|
By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #29) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 5:57 pm: |
Oh by the way, Pink beach is certainly not off limit for kiteboarders, get informed here....The only place where kiteboarding is banned, is Lac Bay. Every other place on Bonaire you can windsurf/kitesurf. And yes, I'll watch the divers if I'm there, no worries!
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #39) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 6:02 pm: |
Same old, same old. You people are unbelievable; who the hell wants to dive in Lac Bay anyway. I cant understand the anti kiter attitude that some of you have. I cant speak for all the kiters but I'm 43 years old and have a fine attitude, I've never had a problem with anybody on the beach. You are all full of it. Any reasonable person can see that Bonaire and the the Bonarians could gain from providing a safe place to kite. What could possibly be wrong with alowing kiters into Lac after 3:00 on probationary basis. Also no kiter should ever be within two kite lines of the shore. Lac is so easy, its shallow and getting launched out at the dock is a no brainer. Give me a break you people, start thinking about how to share, text removed by moderators due to name calling
|
By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4401) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 7:34 pm: |
Stephen, I'm sure you are a real nice person and that your attitude is wonderful. But the issue is not the sharing part we (let me rephrase that, I) am worried about, I've stated it here before and I'll state is again, Kiting and snorkeling, swimming and diving can be done at the same location, BUT we all have to take our responsibilities. I'll descend in 3 feet of water and I'll ascend in 3 feet of water (that's pretty close to the shore on most sites). I really don't like ascending and the first thing that I'll see when I put my head above the water is an incoming kite. If the kiters (that I love to watch, with their high jumps, spinning and so on) could stay further away from the shore, we could all enjoy the waters of Bonaire. And when leaving the shore-line or getting back to it, please do as all boaters have to do by regulation, and reduce your speed in the shallows.
|
By Alex Brown (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #150) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 8:24 pm: |
Jeroen,
|
By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #504) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 8:43 pm: |
The Bonaire kitesurf site states safety is 15m from the beach ... where ever I looked (FKAS, Cabarete, Belgium) the safety is go out and stay out and keep at least 100m from beach and bystanders ! Perhaps it is time that the Bonaire kitesurfers adjust their standards of safety and the problems with snorklers and divers and beachgoers will be rather less numerous ...
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #40) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 9:12 pm: |
Guys, its not a big deal, kiting is not as dangerous as as the hysteria suggest; theres so much room at Lac, go upwind, stay upwind, create a boundary, whatever, share the water. The authorties can always rescind any condition. Somebody come up with a sensible solution. Do not be scared we (kiters) come in peace...
|
By Glen Reem (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2505) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 2:41 am: |
Stephen,
|
By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1789) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 5:50 am: |
I must add this - if the kiters can't even control themselves on an internet forum what hope have we of them doing the same on the water?
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #41) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 8:27 am: |
What are you guys talking about? What kiters are you referring? The simple fact is kiters, windsurfers and divers can all manage a sensible solution, the only problems are:
|
By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2944) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 9:24 am: |
Stephen, some people are talking about kiters who almost ran them over as they exited the water. Denying that these events have occurred, and attacking the people who have reported them, will only prejudice divers against your sport.
|
By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #30) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 10:12 am: |
Can anybody tell me how I can stop getting emails from this forum??? I don't want to participate any longer. When people want to chat, come to the beach, in stat of attacking and insulting 'kiters'. People don't know what they talk about here.
|
By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1792) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 10:40 am: |
If you no longer wish to participate on the forum email the moderators and ask them to delete your account - Here is the address moderators@BonaireTalk.com
|
By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #31) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 10:48 am: |
Thanx Brian
|
By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1795) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 10:58 am: |
Hey Jeroen by the way we love your profile pic with the dogs.
|
By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #505) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 11:08 am: |
Jeroen, you certainly don't like to answer questions .... neither from Alex nor from me.
|
By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #32) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 11:46 am: |
Sorry Birgitte.
|
By David Johnson (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #229) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 2:23 pm: |
I am old enough to remember the ski area progression (no ski brakes allowed, no jumping, no short skis allowed, no snow boards allowed, etc.) What made those changes happen was economics -- there were too many snowboarders wanting to buy a lift ticket for most ski areas to ignore.
|
By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #33) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 6:04 pm: |
Hi David,
|
By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #506) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 6:22 pm: |
The rest of the world (not only the people on BT) seems to think different. Otherwise why has the rest of the world a safty distance from shore and bystanders of a minimum of a 100m ????
|
By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2945) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 9:50 pm: |
Brigitte, it certainly seems as if the kiteboarders followed their own rules as laid down by kiteboarding groups there would be no problem. Do these people need to be certified to kite? I think it is high time the government regulated it and enforced international rules.
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #42) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 8:29 am: |
Noresponse, you are a condencending and completely rude. The fact that you think rights to anything is beyond me. To suggest you first dibs because you have (divers) been there first is a selfish and arrogant position. I begin to tolerate that, the only thing that prevents me from loosing all decorum is the respect for others on BT. So in fairness to them I ask you to crawl back under the rock you came from.
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #43) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 8:55 am: |
those suggestions transcribed by Rick Iossi. Are relevent only in respect to onshore conditions. The simple fact is the condition on Bonaire is the opposit, those suggestions are not applicable; however they could be applied to a situation such as Lac Bay. The fact that kitesurfers have been banished from Lac or any other decent locations is why they are at Atlantis or Pink Beach. As it exists now kitesurfers have no other alternative, it is what it is. If divers think they have more rights, rights that trump all others thats pathetic. It sounds to me that the divers could help serve themselves while at the same time helping kiters. If somebody, especially from the diver constituancy was to work to get get us access at Lac there problems would be solved. I have made many consructive suggestions that take into account the many conditions at Lac. The bottom line is kitesurfing should be integrated into Bonaire immediately, the opportunities are tremendous. Before somebody argues that a kiters contribution doesnt mean anything, or that the economics are marginal let me suggest its not just the kiters. In my case, as in many, I kite, my wife windsurfs, my children will likely windsurf first. People think that kiters are from another planet, believe me, I'm totally integrated into the water thing, not a noob from the periphery.
|
By Susan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1740) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 9:18 am: |
Are you a complete idiot?? It isn't the divers endangering kiters lives - and until you accept that you kiters have some responsibility your rantings are nothing but that, rantings.
|
By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4402) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 9:32 am: |
Stephen, just being curious: What part of SAFETY are you missing?
|
By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4403) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 9:37 am: |
Susan, I think Stephen got a private message in his mailbox. The return address of those messages is noresponse@bonairetalk.com, that might have been why he is referring to noresponse.
|
By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #508) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 10:06 am: |
so the kite surfers need different wind ... so why not going to Baby Beach ? No divers there, no windsurfers there and only very very rarely a wave surfer or beach goer ....
|
By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #34) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 9:10 pm: |
Birgit, why don't you go diving there?
|
By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #35) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 9:12 pm: |
Please Birgit, just be reasonalbe....why should the kiters have to move somewhere else? There are 400 divingspots to go diving, there is one place on Bonaire's westcoast where you can put your kite on the BEACH whithout getting this expensive thing damaged....why not go diving somewhere else if you are scared for the kiters....
|
By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #36) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 9:13 pm: |
If you just knew enough about this sport, you would not be scared diving with kiters above you!
|
By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #510) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 9:37 pm: |
Jeroen, you were the one complaining about the wrong wind by Atlantis --- other side of the island the wind than should be right, no ??? So what is wrong with Baby Beach ????
|
By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #37) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 10:41 pm: |
Please Birgit...I kite at babybeach...no problem. But nobody comes with me....waves/onshore winds/rocks/stones...do I need to say more?
|
By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #511) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 11:09 pm: |
Jeroen, in an earlier posting you complained about offshore winds at Atlantis, now the onshore winds of Baby Beach are no good ....
|
By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4408) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 1:10 am: |
Jeroen, somehow it seems that the people defending kiting on Bonaire are forgetting to answer one important question: "Why don't you follow the safety procedures set in the rest of the world and why don't you obey the same rules all boaters have to follow (like no sailing in the shallows and going fast is only allowed in the blue)?"
|
By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2950) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 7:36 am: |
Well if there is only one place to go kiting on Bonaire, maybe you are trying to kite on the wrong island? If kiters on Bonaire need special, more dangerous rules for their sport that contradict the rules in use everywhere else in the world, maybe the real problem is kiters need to go to another island more suited to their sport.
|
By David Johnson (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #231) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 8:02 am: |
Stephen:
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #44) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 8:32 am: |
Its one beach, gimmee a break! What is so difficult with having to share. Use common sense, a sausage, or whatever else works. The whole safety thing is blown out of proportion. All activities worth doing come with inherent risk. Kitesurfing, Diving, Windsurfing, hiking, driving, sex, drugs, alcohol. There are no gaurantees in this world. Dont use your fear as an obstatcle, its a slippery slope to doing nothing but being a couch potatoe. Its pretty obvious that many BT'ers have this idea that they own the island and that their will is more important then anyone elses. As an outsider I think many of you are suffering from a disease called meism, me, me, me me. Jeroen is forced into what is arguably a dangerous and ridiculous place to have to kite, having have been forced there many of you are going a step further and condeming him, you are indifferent to the kiters situation, many of you seem to think that condeming kiting is somehow a strategy. This condition is frustrating and reflects a completely arrogant position. Bridgette, Seb and the rest of you need to begin to consider solutions that are not so stupid. Its pretty obvious that Bonaire Talk, is more like Bonaire sqwalk. Isnt there anyone out there that has the power, good judgement, and a sense of fair play? Have kiters condemned Divers? dont you think that a good rub can go both ways; for instance, divers use tons of gas, either driving around the island looking for yellow stones or using boats. The generators required for air compression use petrol or some other fossil fuel. All the weight being transported around is using fuel, many of you go down and poke and disturb an area you have no buisness in, ask a fish, if he wants you there. Diving may be fun and exciting but is does more damage to the island then a kiter ever could. There are many hotels, motels, restaurants, tour boats etc that directly contradict many of your mantras. Kiters use only the wind, any talk about the silly but necassary boat that the kiters have to retrieve errant kiters is minimal compared to the petrol consuming diver contingent. My point is simply stones are easy to throw, be careful where you hurl your venom. I will simply say what I have been saying for years! Lac Bay is the place for kiters, and windsurfers. It doesnt need to be more complicated then that. Vendor supervised, a mark zone, (if a kiter cant manage to stay there for whatever reason they would be required to put the kite down, self retrieve and do the walk of shame, simple really, just as any other beach with a similiar situation) Each vendor should be able to host a number of kiters, the number to be determined, locals need only to pass a test of competancy, and then to assist the vendors in policing the situation. Of course somebody is going to somehow criticise me, it will probably have nothing to do with working out a tolerable solution for all, whatever, go ahead, my expectation is that none of you have the will or vision to respect kiters and use your self imposed command of the world in ways that are fair. Many of you should be ashamed.
|
By David Johnson (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #232) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 8:38 am: |
Jeroen:
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #45) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 8:45 am: |
David, you seem to have a cool head, one of very few that may represent BT. The simple fact is kiteurfing has not had the opportunity to show its possibilities. I am one of those core components that you spoke of, On my visit to Bonaire I was there to windsurf and enjoy the island, I now kitsurf and am now no longer considered part of the core, why? Is it peoples idea we are all in our twentys and have no money, family, or other interests? Isnt it reasonable to consider kiters would be a great part of the mix? Many familys who windsurf have a member or two that kite, no doubt in the majority its the Dad, either way, Dad, Mom, kids whatever, its not only kiters looking elswhere to vacation its the whole family having to.
|
By David Johnson (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #233) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 8:57 am: |
Stephen:
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #46) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 9:08 am: |
Well said David, I too am out the door to go kiting. Its windy here on Cape Cod, my kiting and windsurfing buddies are gonna hit the water, I welcome all divers, and fishermen also. Have a good day everyone!
|
By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2952) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 9:17 am: |
Stephen, I suspect your parents were way too indulgent. If you want to change the world, the way to do it is not by whining for someone to change it for you. True argument does not involve ad hominem attacks; it involves reasoning, an ability you seem to lack. Your position is indefensible, so you resort to calumny.
|
By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #38) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 9:19 am: |
Is this bonaire Stalk? Can anybody help me stop getting emailmessages when somebody post something on this frustrating forum?
|
By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #39) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 9:21 am: |
And Birgit, maybe better that you just come to the beach and have a closer look....your attitude is the 'attacking' way now, so I'm out of here. I'm the latest person who is selfish. Too bad you don't know me.....
|
By David Johnson (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #234) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 9:49 am: |
Jeroen:
|
By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #40) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 10:29 am: |
Thnx but it does not work...maybe somethings wrong here...I'll figure out...
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #47) on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 10:21 am: |
"Stephen, I suspect your parents were way too indulgent. If you want to
|
By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #48) on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 4:45 pm: |
Bridgette, Seb and Martin, you folks are so uptight. There are no "International rules" simply suggestions. Every kiter must take into account the location, weather etc. Bridgette do us a favor and tell us what resort you work for, many kiters and some windsurfers may not want to intrude on your WORLD. I know I would prefer to avoid you.
|
By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4411) on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 5:45 pm: |
Stephen, could you please explain why you think I'm uptight when I'm worried about safety?
|
By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4412) on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 5:52 pm: |
Oh, Stephen, I did not want to get ugly here. It seems you don't like arguments from other people ( I'm talking about this tread).
|
By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2954) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:11 am: |
Stephen, at least you admit, finally, you are just here to annoy people.
|
By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1843) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:17 am: |
Martin
|
By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4413) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:44 am: |
Brian, the tread I was pointing to was under local items, but we (the moderators) decided to move it to the kiting, windsurfing and sailing tread. I think you did manage to find it there...
|
By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1850) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:46 am: |
I think I have a recollection of it.
|
Visit: The Bonaire WebCams - Current Bonaire images and weather!
The Bonaire Insider - the latest tourism news about Bonaire
The Bonaire Information Site, InfoBonaire
Search Bonaire - Search top Bonaire Web sites