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Kitesurfing, Windsurfing and Sailing: Kiteboarding on Bonaire
Bonaire Talk: Kitesurfing, Windsurfing and Sailing: Archives: Archives 2001 - 2006: Archives - 2005-04-01 to 2006-12-31: Kiteboarding on Bonaire
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephan Zaat (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #2) on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 11:43 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Message removed by moderator due to self promotion.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #1) on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 1:13 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hi there, so whats the deal, have the Bonaire authorities come to there senses yet? I have been hoping for a couple of years that the old gaurd at Lac Bay would eventually invite kiteboarders back to the bay. I have no patience for the any of the arguments against kiting there as they are all excuses that generate from the windsurfer vs. kiter scenario. Having been to Bonaire for my honeymoon several years ago I was amazed at the beuty and serenity of the island. The windsurfing was fantastic, the people terrific. When I left the island for my return to Massachusetts I couldnt help but think of my next trip to the island and that next time I would get into some scuba also, little did I realise that once introduced to kiting I would never return to windsurfing, and consequently Bonaire. having had to explore other tropical locations for my anuual treks away from home I cant help but to try and emphasize the short sitedness of the island and its governing authorities, kiting can and shuld work at Lac Bay. Firstly, half of all the Bay is to shallow for windsurfing unless you are a beginner using a long board and a short fin, secondly having otherwise go over to Atlantis and be forced to kite in offshore winds is totally ridiculous and borders on negligence. While I am sure some find it realistic to do this I for one think it is reckless, I've been kiting for several years and have learned that the number one rule for kite safety is a pretty basic one, sail only in on or side shore conditions, period. At first I cut the the island officials some slack, kiting was new and the island old. I figured that as in the ski industry and its eventual complete acceptance of snowboarding it would be just a matter of time before people were allowed back to Lac. I figure its still just a matter of time, I mean how ignorant do you have to be to not see that windsurfing is on its way out and that kiting is growing exponentially, wake up Bonaire, please!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #372) on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 6:01 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I guess you never saw the injuries to the windsurfers ??? Lots of blood, lots of stitches .... or the damage done to the boards ???? Did not happen to me (I practice neither), but to several of our guests ... I am really not keen on seeing it again ..... it does not work both in Sorobon, they tried !!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #2) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 3:59 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

bridgette you gotta be kidding, blood, stitches? while I have no doubts accidents can and will happen, I am also sure that this is not true and likely a harsh rumor that has been propegated by sellfish discontented sailboarders. If what you say is true I would appreciate a complete acoount of such an incident. Also I may add that after 4 years of kiting and another 15 of windsurfing before, injuries happen all the time. Personally i have been injured more as a result of windsurfing then kiting, injuries have included, stitches, contusions muscle pulls, broken bones and more. Granted I have never hurt anyone else doing either sport. As far as property damage please! people are responsible for damage they do and need to be held accountable. I cant speak for your guest that had issues with kiters but I think you should be a little more open minded, after all it is your bottom line that is being compromised, you and fellow proprieters of lodging and accomodations should have a meeting to discuss this and sort it out. I know that Belmare has had one less family to vacation there as a result and if any of my conversations with others such the Kontiki beach club of which I understand does not support your contentions has lost vacationers. The real threat here isnt kiters, it's the fact that kiters which are usually linked to windsurfers will go someplace else to vacation, if you havnt already seen this as a consequence then you soon will. I think people in your position should take a step back and think this thing through; you can either have your flat water windsurfing paradise that caters only to beginners and intermedites, (which will likely result in a complete disaster as the sport is shrinking exponentially as kiting becomes popular) or instead work with kiters to develop a world class kiting destination that accomodates both disciplines. The days of kiting being a fringe activity are over. You guys should develop a less subjective approach and do some homework, the Island should do a real objective anaylsis and try to understnd what it is they and yourself are doing, "dont cut off your nose to spite your face"

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4253) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 4:25 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen,

I can only speak from what I've experienced myself last October. I was diving with some friends (all of us experienced Bonaire Divers) at Atlantis and we surfaced close to shore in less than a meter (3 feet) of water. When we surfaced (and believe me, it was within 5 meters from the shore), we almost got hit by a kiter. I'm not saying he did it on purpose, I DO think the kiters should stay further away from the shore (except near the bus, and we where about 200 meters from the bus). If everyone would keep the other users of the nice waters around Bonaire in mind, things would get a lot safer.

And I also believe that the attitude of "We are here and we do what we want, or else..." is not a good one to have if you want to create a good relationship with the local business people (or population for that matter), but that is just my 2 cents.

And don't get me wrong here, I do enjoy the show a number of kiters are giving, but like all sports, try to keep it safe for everybody.

Martin

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #3) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 5:13 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Martin, I appreciate your thoughts. However, if you ask me... I think that the only safe places to kite are those with onshore or side-shore wind conditions, for that reason alone I think that Atlantis is better suited for diving. Offshore winds equal good visibility hence good diving, onshore usually mirky and cloudy hence poor diving, that reason alone could result in decent segregation of activities. With the exception of Lac which is onshore with good visibility but no divers....hmmm? seems the only real problem with Lac is the windsurfing. Here at home on Cape Cod, we all congregate together, with exception of a couple launches kiters and windsurfers get along fine, we share the water and the stoke of our sports. I agree there should be different zones and rules, not everything that windsurfers do should be done by kiters and vice versa. Basic sensibilities such as not flying kites on the beach, instead all launches should be assited and only in a certain areas and away from shore in the shallows, and people should drop their kites out on the water and not on shore when they come in. Also maybe some bouys that depict the kiting zone where windsurfers are welcome but need to be aware, otherwise the beginner windsurfers should have a safe and seperate zone within Lac Bay. I've been to Bonaire and can tell you that there is so much room, I mean if the rules were simply to kite only beyond the raft and before the reef this could work, there is tons of room out there especilly where the water gets deep but the winds are still onshore. If the officials in bonaire are concerned about being overrun by kiters they could establish specific hours to start, or require kiters who are not local to be required to pass a basic safety awarness test, and maybe to only allow those kiters who work somthing out with the proprietors of the windsurfing establishments. There are so many ways this could work I just cant fathom the the business that is being lost just because some have no will or lack the clarity to work this out rationally, I mean what the heck if it doesnt work end it, otherwise why not experiment, Bonaire is sitting on a treasure that only windsurfers can appreciate, thats pretty lame.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #4) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 5:22 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hey Martin one last thing, the only reason you almost got hit by a kiter is because of the off shore conditions located at Atlantis, no kiter wants to go out further then he or she can swim and in off shore conditions its hard to consider the options of going to far out, also when we try a trick there is a likelyhood of crashing hence the rational for being close to shore. I can almost garantee that if Lac was opened to kiters the divers would have the rest of the island to themselves. Safety is my primary concern thats why i will not return to Bonaire unless i can sail safely, If things continue the way they are somebody is going to get killed, eaten, or otherwise spend the night on the open ocean.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #5) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 5:24 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Are you the Martin that has brought local windsurfing talent to the Cape, are you local?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4254) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 5:40 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, thank you for your long response. I think there should be a safe place where all the watersporters on Bonaire can live (or sport) next to each other. I think there is a task for the local government here. But, unfortunaly, they have other (more urgent) matters to attend to, like dealing with money problems at the local hospital and the fact the government has fallen last weekend. I think there will pass some more time before the kite / surf / dive issue will be dealt with.

And I'm not the martin you are referring to, I live in Holland.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #6) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 5:54 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Martin, sorry to bother you again but the issue "government has fallen last weekend" what is that all about? it doesnt sound good. Unfortunately, I think all of this is linkled, money makes the world go around, one more reason to invite kiters back under a controlled probationary period, I just wish it could be sooner, this will be my third season I have had to contimplate going someplace else. If the officials in Bonaire could also contimplate setting up another venue, a small area that the plateu that Lac shares with the salt company could be 'gently' developed to be a world class kiting destination, why not create a lagoon near the salt works or otherwise use existing ones to kite in, I only wish I had the money and resources to show the government what it is they could create from nothing more than sand and water, maybe even establish a kiter tax that would supplement the hospital and other eco friendly initiatives.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4255) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 6:00 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

No bother. Last weekend the Bonaire Government stepped out of the government of the Dutch Antilles due to the fact that the government didn't follow up on promises they made about financial support of the hospital or the airport. I bet more info can be found on www.amigoe.com. And IF the kiters would like to support Bonaire, why don't they start by buying the Dive tag, so the marine park gets more money to be developed... ;)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #373) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 6:08 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, I dont think I need to give you a detailed account of what happend to different of guests, if you think I am lying, that is your problem.
In the past the kite surfers did not follow the established rules, they did not pay attention to the windsurfers, they did not pay attention to protect the mangroves .... certainly not all of them, but too many anyhow ... do we need a surfers police out there??? Easier just to separate them.

The salt pans are private property - as are the beaches out there, including the kite beach and pink beach - so politics have to come in - and as Martin wrote, the government has other problems at this time and I guess at least for the next year ... hospital, airport, change of statut ....

You have been to Bonaire - how many times? - I live here for 18 years .....

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cyn Loo Hoo (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #15309) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 6:33 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Martin, a kiter within 15 feet (5 meters) of shore is TOO close...and I can't believe that the kiter did not see you and your dive group in the water...it's shallow there.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4256) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 6:45 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cynde, ask Tom and Susan. Tom did have to dive real fast... :-(

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cyn Loo Hoo (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #15310) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 7:28 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Scary...

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2828) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 8:01 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Accepting my share of blame for not having my safety sausage with me. None the less this is my recollection of what happened:

When we entered the water the kiters were all well to the south by the yellow building. As we were ending our dive we had several pass directly over. No big deal I thought as we made our way into shallower water as Martin has mentioned. I surfaced and stood up in approximately 4' of water and looked southward, over 100 yards away a kiter was approaching looking directly at me (eye contact) when it became obvious he was not going to veer, I dove. He passed directly over. When I next surfaced after kicking into even shallower water, he was coming back, fortunately for both, he and I, he veered away and headed out into blue water.

Next time I dive Atlantis, I will carry my Safety Sausage.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By roan jaspars (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #1) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 8:12 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Martin,

As you might not know, most local kiteboarders on Bonaire are also divers and therefor they do have a divetag. The visiting kiteboarders that do not dive can buy a "watersport" tag at the kiteboarding school.

Kind regards,

Roan Jaspars

link removed by Moderators

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Becky Hauser (BonaireTalker - Post #24) on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 9:02 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Tom, I have a stupid question.
If a kiter who made eye contact with you would not swerve to avoid hitting you, would he respond more favorably to a safety sausage? Would he even know what it is? Not trying to start something, I'm just wondering.
Becky

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2830) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 10:39 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Becky, I would hope that he would.

Even though I am a diver and work in the industry, I do not believe that Bonaire or any tourist destination should be reserved for any particular form(s) of recreation. Each sport or activity has the potential of bringing more people that require lodging, vehicles, food, etc., to Bonaire. Now if the extra money the tourist spend would actually trickle down to the people that work to provide these goods and services... Sorry, I am dreaming out loud again.
Rant off!

I forgot something in my previous post. The next day, John (aka Smack) and I did dive Atlantis. We went back early in the morning (my sausage was with me)and enjoyed a long, worry free dive. We also had the entire area to ourselves.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Thomas (BonaireTalker - Post #49) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 12:02 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

As a long time Bonaire diver I have a problem with the kiters mainly because the majority seem to be trying to learn the sport and have absolutely no control, they seem to just try and stay up and have not a clue what is around them nor could do anything about it if they did. We have seen kiters go out to sea, crash into the shore, almost crash into each other, and on one ocassion came very close to splitting the head of a diver. I know some kiters are very skilled and do have control but the others are dangerous. Also the kiters are spanning several dive sites, we just try and avoid them.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cyn Loo Hoo (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #15314) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 12:05 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, increase in tourism would not solve the current government problems (the hospital and the government crisis). I'm not going to expand..if you want to research the link Martin provided to the Amigo, or perhaps check the Bonaire Reporter for more information you will understand about the current situation.

Brigitte lives and has owned a business Bonaire for 18 years so I would tend to believe she has seen a lot more than you and I. She is also very much abreast of current government issues.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #7) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 3:11 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I am not contradicting her account of the current political crisis on Bonaire, however I do have issue with the fact that she has said that people have been hurt by kiters, kiters have damaged property and that in general her position is to bad for the kiters. She obviously has little tolerance for kiters and instead believes she and the rest of the regulars should be able to call the shots. I contest her claims and believe it is a a story born out of fear and her proprietary view that kiters are dangerous and she doesnt like us. I'm sure more tourism would do little to alleviate the current situaton relative to the hospital but I am also sure it would likely do more good than harm. I think this whole conversation has liitle to do with anything more then selfish, self centered, and intirely bogus arguments. Bonaire and its residents will always differ on issues on the island, however I imagine that everyone agrees that more eco friendly visitors is the goal, and that development should be carefully controlled with an emphasis on environmental concerns etc. The fact that Bonaire has a world class location such as Lac Bay and that there is a sport that is exponentially growing such as kiting and that the authorities have basically turned there back on a situation that would bring in lots of revenue is ludicrous. FYI, if Lac was opened to kiters I think you would be very surprised at the potential it holds, infact I bet it would surpass all revenue created by boardsailers within one season and likely double it within a couple of years without compromising the boardsailing or any other activity within the bay. Lastly, what about the kids? the Bonairian youngsters were kicking ass in windsurfing and I'm sure they would be equally good at kiting, but no, the officials think they are doing everyone a favor by avoiding this and that things are fine the way they are, not. This season was the first in several years that the Bonaire crew decided that it wasnt feasible to come to the USA for our annual contest, why? becuase there is no contest, why?, because there isnt the critical mass or enthusiasm to support a windsurfing contest, why, because kiting has become the dominant sport and every boardsailer I know with the exception of very few, has become a kiter and has no intention of going back. If you dont believe me speak with one of your own who now lives on Bonaire, I'm sure you all know Ann, she knows the current situation here on Cape Cod and will likely vouch for the fact that most of the old guard here has gone over to kiting.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cyn Loo Hoo (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #15324) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 3:39 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I don't think that Brigitte said she didn't like kiters, I believe she said it was easier to "separate" them (i.e., boarders, kiters, divers) for everyone's safety. Did you read Tom's post above and his experience?

I'm not trying to argue any point. I agree, everyone should have their space on Bonaire, boarders, kiters, divers...safely. The kiters do need a "designated area" to safely practice their sport. Maybe you should write to the Bonaire Government with your ideas.:-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cyn Loo Hoo (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #15325) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 3:43 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

She obviously has little tolerance for kiters and instead believes she and the rest of the regulars should be able to call the shots.




Do you know Brigitte? Have you met her? I think your statement is a bit harsh. She and the rest of the "regulars" are not calling the shots. How do you know what she believes?

Play nice!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kelly Baum (GDLW) (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3454) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 3:50 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, I feel that if you would consider toning down your in-your-face criticism a bit, you may find others who agree with you; or at the very least would be interested in getting more information to make an informed decision as to how they feel about this particular subject. However, when you say things like, "I think this whole conversation has liitle to do with anything more then selfish, self centered, and intirely bogus arguments" you do little to help your cause. Sometimes when people feel personally attacked, they will defend themselves when I can only assume that isn't the purpose of this discussion.

Please can we not insult the locals (or "regulars" as you call them) and others who post on this board? It is so unnecessary to make your point. I prefer to think we are all mature enough to have an intelligent discussion on this topic.

I, for one, will be interested to see what the future holds for kiteboarding. It is exquisite to watch. (from shore. lol)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cyn Loo Hoo (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #15326) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 4:05 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Well said Kelly, thank you:-) There is a lot of kiteboarding on the left coast, and it is fun to watch (from shore, not in the water with one coming directly at you) ;-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kelly Baum (GDLW) (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3455) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 4:30 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cynde, the first kiteboarder I ever saw was with you in Puerto Rico, sitting out on your little verandah. It was so cool to watch. But yes, I suppose it would be a whole lot less cool to watch it coming straight at you. lol

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #8) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 4:43 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Kelly, I wish I could share your optimism. Frankly, I'm just a little put off by some of the things people say. I cant speak to specifics relative to Bonaire but I can say that there is no shortage of kite bashing people in the Bonaire community. I take issue with people that fabricate stories or otherwise imbellish them to their taste. I agree my tone sucks and that I should step back and sometimes think about how this stuff comes across but really, it's my opinion that Bonaire has done little in the face of such opportunity because some like the status quo and would rather keep Bonaire as they want it. No place have I heard a decent articulate rational other then accounts of what happened (or didnt) in the past, and that the decision to ban kiting at Lac was made without objectivity or any critical thought. To me kiting is similar the Alpine sports industry, snowboarding was a renegade activity once and is now the savior of the entire industry. Granted it took some time and only in incremental steps but nobody in the business will say that snowboarding has been bad for the industry; even at Ajax mountain in Aspen, the last hold out for skiing only has now introduced snowboarding, why?, revenue that they were losing to other resorts. For Bridgette to say they tried is weak, I mean if you call allowing kiters of any level, without any rules, and without any particular area or specific allowed times "trying" all I can say is thats lame. Today kiters are better, kites are safer, and beginners are required to adhere to specific rules and are required to be accountable. it seems that there is an all or nothing attitude in Bonaire, why not as in other areas allow kiting only in the afternoon say between 3pm and 6pm and only beyond the raft? Unfortnately Bridgette and some others seem to think that kiters would harm there business instead of helping, this is not the case and I would think that anybody who owns, operates or otherwise depends on travelers for there income would come to the same conclusion.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #9) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 4:54 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Sorry that too seems a little harsh, really I'm not that bad..lol

Question for Bridgette - what have your observations at Lac suggest to you? do you think there are more windsurfers then in years past? or less?

People within the Lac Bay community need to stop worrying about what kiting will do to there existing business and instead think of the bountiful opportunities that kiting can bring to themselves, and the rest of the island.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #374) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 5:12 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, some of your comments are absolut outragous. Before making certain comments of what is happening at Sorobon you should know what happend in the past and not dismiss automatically what somebody else says. Knowledge is the key not talk !
There were rules and a kind of control in the past by Stinapa - the kitesurfers still thought they could do as they liked and angered the other windsurfers as much as Stinapa. Several times the police was called.

Why on earth should I have something against kitesurfers? Or be one sided pro windsurfers?
If I am pro something than it is pro Mangroves !
And as I said before, I do neither of these two sports.

As you said, both kite and windsurfing is business - and I have a lodging business. But that does not take away that I have personally seen these injuries to windsurfers (head, leg, arms...) and one big one to a kitesurfer - a kitesurfer who did not follow the rules and cutted his feet and leg severely at a coral and had to go home before the end of his vacation. And I would think there have been more accidents ... why should these accidents only happen to people staying with me ?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cyn Loo Hoo (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #15329) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 5:22 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, I'm afraid to say that you are not doing much to help the reputation of kiteboarders, or the industry. These are your first posts to this board, you provide little information in your profile about yourself, and you are not polite (you attract more bees with honey than vinegar)


quote:

I cant speak to specifics relative to Bonaire but I can say that there is no shortage of kite bashing people in the Bonaire community.


 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #375) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 5:25 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

By the way, Stephen, I guess you read what Tom wrote about the eye contact between diver and kitesurfer and how the kitesurfer reacted? Typical what the windsurfers told me in the past ... looks like some kitesurfers have still not learned how to behave in contact with others.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #10) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 5:57 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Bridgette, I dont think anything I have said is outrageous. I can only assume that accidents can happen and that some may have indeed occured however to say that all avenues have been explored is not true. May I suggest a couple of things that I hope would avoid such circumstances; Firstly, if people had to sign somthing as a condition of use that would help, Secondly, if kiting there was interdependent on particapation with the vendors at Lac then people would be much more respectful and accountable. Nobody would want their privledges revoked during their vacation and its likely that this alone would solve a lot of issues; Thirdly, I think that the biggest issue is the control of the Bay. One of the best things about kiting is that you can bring your own equipment, no doubt this has had something to do with the current climate at Lac. Unfortunately this could result in a conflict of interest with the vendors there, I would suggest that kiters be required to register with one of the two and pay a reasonable fee for access and in turn get assisted landing and launching of their kites, this would prevent people from "crashing" the party at Lac and disrupting the apple card that has existed before kiting. No doubt some would avoid lac if a fee was required and that may be good thing. Also if people were required to demonstrate basic competency or to posess a certification level before being allowed on the Bay that would prevent much of the headaches. No doubt kiting has had its share of growing pains but much has been done in other areas to avoid some of the issues that were present in the early years, why not learn from others by establishing rules and require people to be accountable by having them sail only out of the established vendor areas.

I dont think its fair to say that kiting has been tried and that its easier just to separate the activities, that may work for you but many others have a serious problem with that. Forcing people to go over to Atlantis to sail in offshore conditions is not right and will likely result in death or serious injury, I mean would it be realistic to ask windsurfers to sail in off-shore conditions, can you imagine the problems? now imagine those problem if you had no board to stand on and you have to surface swim in deep water against a twenty knot breeze with a kite in your hands. Lastly, That little skiff used to rescue people would be swamped if it went more then 500 yards off shore when it was blowing hard.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #11) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 6:12 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I'm not sure I agree with the paraphrase honey vs. vinegar. I seem to have ruffled some feathers and that was my intent. I wasnt expecting to get any support from the community there, instead I have got more of the same old crap that I predicted. Bridgette, Cynde, I'm not going to pull punches, I'm sick of this pervasive intolerant stance you have taken. I have for three years bited my tongue, hoped and prayed that thngs would change but they havnt and given that you rather stick your head in the sand then to take a longer look is sad. I hoped for a constructive dialogue but instead have had no exchange of ideas and have had to listen to dribble. If I reflect badly on the kiting community I am very sorry however somethings are better said from outside the box then from within. There are plenty of opinions out there, please excuse me for sharing mine.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cyn Loo Hoo (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #15330) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 6:42 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, not once did I say that kiteboarding should not be allowed on Bonaire. I said that I thought that kiteboarding, windsurfing AND diving should all be allowed. The problem is safety (again, go back up and read Tom's post...and he is not the first one to encounter this problem, you seem to be sticking your head in the sand by not even acknowledging it). If you frequent this board, or do a search, you will see many many discussions on the topic. I don't have my head in the sand.

Honey vs. vinegar...had your first few posts been kind, and not come across as a negative rant, you may have gotten the kind of discussion you were looking for. Posts, especially first posts to a board in my opinion, should be positioned as if you were meeting a group of people for the first time and speaking about a topic or subject. Best foot forward so to speak...

Again, politeness and courtesy will take you a long way (another way of saying honey vs vinegar).

This board is for open discussion and discourse, but again, politeness goes a long way...

Nuff said...

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Freddie (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #6865) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 7:58 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I have tried to stay out of this but I have never heard of such an arrogant ,self centered egotistical person in my life!! STEPHEN, IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT YOU SEE AND READ ON BT GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Reem (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2229) on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 11:08 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen,

The people you are talking with here have been through all this and know whereof they speak.

However many words you use here, kind or nasty, nothing will change: we don't make the rules.

Take your concerns and interests to Bonaire for a month or two and engage the people who make the rules. And deal with the activities of the (few) windsurfers who are dangerous and have caused the rules you don't like.

Again, we have listened but all your fuming here does nothing but alienate BT'ers.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #12) on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 10:25 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

I find it amusing that people are so put off by me, all I did was to inquire and express my opinion. I feel my approach was reasonable and balanced. This conversation deteriorated only when Bridgette thought she could dismiss my inquiry with little more thought then going to the bathroom. I mean whats going on here, I not only express my opinion but suggest scenarios that may work, instead of a dialogue all I get is invalidated and insulted. Freddie you fool. How has my ego gotten involved in this? Self centered? I'm not the one ivlidating anything. I havnt said that kiting should be allowed without considerable thought, mutual concensus, and only after a probationary period. If I had a month or two I would love to come to Bonaire however I don't and if I did I would likely go someplace else as a result of the kiting restrictions. Any how, I'm sure that would suit many of you just fine; which is typical of the NIMBY attitude that is prevelent in and around Lac. I'm sure I wont ever win a popularity (or spelling) contest as a result of my comments but I hardly think they warrant the level of contempt that I am hearing. Lastly, I think it is important that I say I dont speak for all kiters, and my intentions were certainly not to alienate them any more then you all all ready have.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cyn Loo Hoo (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #15340) on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 12:01 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen,

You say you have been "reasonable and balanced."


quote:

Bridgette, Cynde, I'm not going to pull punches, I'm sick of this pervasive intolerant stance you have taken




that is just one quote from one of your many posts above...it had my name in it so I thought it would be a good example...I find it amusing that you have taken my posts as being a "pervasive intolerant stance." I'm chuckling.

Stephen, please go back and read your posts...had we been in the same room having this conversation, I would have walked out of the room long ago (funny how online you stay longer than you would in person). Brigitte NEVER mentioned property damage, yet, you raged on about it...you have insulted me, and Brigitte.

I certainly hope you do not talk to people the way you have to me (and others) in person.

(Picture me leaving the room, I have stayed far too long listening to an abusive person)...door shut...

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #13) on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 1:27 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Welcome back to the room Cynde. In fairness Cynde you are correct, my tone is a little harsh and I apologise if it has been to inflamatory, really. My demeanor is not as it sounds in my posts and I'm sure if we were in the same room we could rationally discuss this, unfortunately forums do have a tendency to distort communications. I think what is so disapointing is that nobody sees the glass as half full, only half empty. I would think that there would be incredible pressure from economic interest within Bonaire to consider how kiting can be re-introduced to Lac without the problems that occured in the beginning years, if done with thoughtful and deliberate attention it could be in the interest of all concerned, especialy the vendors, lodgers and residents of Bonaire. Unfortunately Bonaire does not have the geography that is condusive to kiting anywhere else other then Lac, that is why this is an issue. All the arguments I have heard against kiting at Lac seem on the face to be unfair, biased, and hence intolerant. I'll leave this for you to think about: if kiting was allowed the vacation bookings relative to watersports at lac would in my opinion double immediately, windsurfers would come back in droves because the kiter(s) in the family (usually the dad) would consider Bonaire instead of dismissing it. I'm sure at this point it's relatively obvious that windsurfing has taken a huge hit as a result of kiting, as a windsurfer and kiter I know all to well the changes taking place at sailing locations all over Cape Cod and elsewhere, those beaches that dont allow kiting have fewer then half the people that use to attend, those that do allow kiting have become the most popular for windsurfers, kiters, and spectators. Fortunately on cape Cod there are plenty of place to both windsurf and kite either together or seperate, unfortunately Bonaire has one spot that is condusive and appropriate for kiting; if people want to see Bonaire grow as a windsurfing and kiting destination you will all have to work together otherwise you are doomed to a fate of dwinding windsurfers which will result in hard times for the vendors at Lac and the ultimate disaster, lose them and have Lac taken over by big money and private interest, it's your call Bonaire.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kelly Baum (GDLW) (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3466) on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 1:31 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, I'm actually not sure that anyone DISAGREES with you. I think most everyone wants all the divers, kiters, windsurfers, etc. to be happy and provide revenue for Bonaire. However, I remain constant in my opinion that when you insult folks right off the bat, no one listens and no one wants to take your side of ANY argument. Right, wrong, or indifferent.

Lighten up little one.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vince DePietro (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #122) on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 4:59 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Before reading this thread I must say I was neutral on this subject..I go to Bonaire primarily to dive (eating, enjoying the weather & friendly people are secondary & only enhance the Bonairean experience).But after reading it, IF Stephen represents the Kiteboarders (And I sincerely hope he doesn't), frankly I'd want nothing to do with them or their ilk..
Stephen...Bear in mind that the PRIMARY tourism attraction when all is said & done (to my knowledge)on Bonaire is still diving..
PS You certainly make no friends when you state "I find it amusing that people are put off by me".
This only serves to alienate you furthur & adversely affects the cause you are championing.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeroen (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #4) on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 10:22 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

To get back on:

"In the past the kite surfers did not follow the established rules, they did not pay attention to the windsurfers, they did not pay attention to protect the mangroves .... certainly not all of them, but too many anyhow ... do we need a surfers police out there??? Easier just to separate them."

I think the kitesurfers who kited on lac Bay before september 6th (the black day for kiting on lac bay) were very good in following the 'rules'. Too bad the person who wrote this doesn't seem to know what she's talking about! Rumors get into the world like this.....too bad!
I think the kiters should get lac bay back during daytime except for the weekends....there is NOBODY there during hole week! Let's be reasonable!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #14) on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 11:30 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Agreed, there are so many different ways that kiting could be included within Lac. Vince, I understand that most tourism comes from the amazing diving around Bonaire however I am a kiter first and a wannabe diver second, as are others. If kiting was allowed at Lac I would likely spend considerable time there and pursue both.

Jeroen, tanks for joining this discussion, I felt as I was the only one who has issue's with the current situation. Can you elaborate a little on what happened on Sept 6th? I'd also be curious to hear how all this went down, is there a chronology of events that is documented? As a kiter on the island have you explored the politics behind this as well as the contentions from Bridgette that kiters are responsible for injuries etc? I agree that kiting should be allowed when nobody else is there, why would anyone have a problem with that; however, as a vacationer I would also hope that something during the week would also be worked out, why not after school hours, say 3-til dark. Lastly, can I ask how long you have you been on Bonaire? and what have your observations been relative to windsurfing tourism condition within the Lac bay community. Speaking objectively, how has kiting affected the wealth/health of those connected as a condition of being dedicated to windsurfing at Lac? My intuition says it must be similar to here in that most of the kiters are recovering windsurfing addicts, or come from completely outside the 'beach sport community' If things there are anything like here, the beaches that are windurfing only have seen there attendence drop in half and the local and well established windsurfing shop closed as a result. Now the beach that allows both kiting and windsurfing is the most popular and as a result the newly established kiting/windsurfing shop located nearby is doing very well.
I have always felt that the decision to not allow kiting within Lac has always been a result of political issues and not safety or environmental. No doubt the introduction of kiters to the bay without respect to the windsurf vendors at Lac was what doomed us kiters. As I see it, most people could come to Bonaire with there own equipment and go out to the huts and kite all day without contributing to the economic health of the area, undoubtedly very unpopular with some folks. Has anyone spoke with Ernest or whom ever and approached this thing with emphasis on the economic sustainability for vendors at Lac? What do you think about the possibility that all non-residents have to pay a fee or otherwise rent equipment and sail out of vendor only areas. This may go a long way to satisfy economic interest as well establish a direct and immediate mechanism for accountability and consequence for those who choose to behave like fools. Anyways, I've gone on at nausea. If anyone else would like to address issues relative to the conversation that kiting should be re-introduced to Lac, please let us know your concerns and how possible conflicts could be avoided without having to have a ban on kiting.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Chalk (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #221) on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 3:22 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I would like to weigh in on this discussion. I am neither a windsurfer nor a kiteboarder, however I am a diver and a resident of the island I love and have lived on for the past 18 years. I also enjoy immensely watching both windsurfing and kiteboarding. For those of you who know me, I don't think they make a kite or a windsurf board big enough to carry me...HA!

The decision to ban kiteboarding in Lac was, in my opinion, strictly a political decision. All of the arguments that were used to ban kiteboarding could have been mitigated with proper controls and open dialogue between all concerned stake holders. However, that did not happen. It was a one-sided discussion and we have all seen which side won.

Is kiteboarding dangerous...hell yes, why would you want to do something that's boring and not a little dangerous...we are all adrenaline junkies to some degree. I certainly know we divers are. Is windsurfing dangerous, of course it is. Can the chances of injury from any of the mentioned sports above be lessened? Why of course they can...with proper training, certification, self-control and the institution of proper rules and regulations that have the safety of participants as well as others in the immediate vicinity and the environment in mind...while at the same time being flexible enough to allow enjoyment of the sport by both participants and observers.

Could this be accomplished in Lac...yes it most certainly can, however, all parties need to sit together with mutual respect for each others rights, likes and dislikes and be willing to compromise on both sides. The day that takes place, all of us will be winners...kiteboarders, windsurfers, divers, businessmen and women...human beings one and all.

Kiteboarding is an up and coming sport and Bonaire has indeed lost business since the ban was put in place and, I fear, will lose much more business unless we all learn to compromise with each other without compromising safety for everyone and the environment.

That's my opinion, but I could be wrong.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #15) on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 4:04 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Jack, thank you very much for weighing in on the situation. I think you are 100% correct about the politics. As an island resident and a non-windsurfer or kiter I think your position is neutral, objective and constructive. I would be curious if you know who makes the decisions and if there is a chance that this can be worked out. I dont know how it works in Bonaire, is there a island council, or do decisions about Lac Bay get determined by some other process or entity?

Jack, please share your thoughts with those that will listen, both at Lac and the entire island. I'm afraid those that expressed there opinion in favor of excluding kiting have done so at the expense of other residents who could likely benefit if kiting was to be allowed at Lac.

Please, if anyone else can contribute to this conversation both on the forum and with your neighbors I feel that this can be changed in fairness of all, let your voice be heard, dont let your interest get trampled by those who speak for themselves, it's your island, and its your right to speak your mind.

Jack has said what I have assumed for sometime, Bonaire is missing a terrific opportunity at Lac, why only have a modest windsurfing destination when you can have a world class destination for all.


Kiteboarding is not a crime!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By seb (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2475) on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 8:00 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Jack, thanks for weighing in.

Stephen, more facts, less uninformed passion, if you please.Possibly there is a better way than asking lots of questions to learn about kiteboarding in Bonaire. Your postings do not advance your cause.
Unless,of course, you are an agent provocateur, and are actually against kiteboarding...

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #16) on Thursday, December 1, 2005 - 8:11 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Sorry I dont agree, how is it I will learn more from asking fewer question? I'm less interested in question then I am in answers, so if you have a better way for me to understand do tell. Are all BT'ers this thin skinned? all I have done is inquire, made suggestions and listened. I think people need to not only understand the situation, but understand that there are certain people on Bonaire who do not want kiteboarding in Lac, I think it is fair that people see whos interest that opinion it reflects. I am sorry if I offend, however I dont think civil exchange of ideas through a dialogue regardless of how uncomfortable it is, is bad.

If somebody has "facts" please share them, if somebody knows how I can reduce my passion for kiting my wife would be interested. Lastly, the whole point of my initial inquiry was to provoke a conversation that has been ignored, I think I have done that and that it has been useful in advancing the cause. Stop bashing me and instead challenge yourself and others to think about the bogus arguments, and consider the biased forces against kiting, that is what has resulted in a ban at Lac, not me.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #19) on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 10:34 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

The only fact that once happened is that somebody attached his line the wrong way and the kite ended up on a tent which was there because some people were having a barbeque there....The day after that happened the ban was there! The rest of the stories are rumors. There is no way anybody was hurt with kiteboarding. I think it is more dangerous to walk on the boulevard when somebody is spinning his motorwheels!!!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #17) on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 3:05 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Jeroen, can you tell me if anything about the process or authority that was responsible for the ban, specifically who is it that calls the shots on Bonaire? Lastly, I was wondering if there have been any discussions with authorities about re-introducing kiting and do you have any suggestions of what can be done to get kiting back into the Bay?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #20) on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 3:15 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

The only people that can do that are the bonairian kids, that's what I think. By banning kiting in lac, the government has taken the opportunaty of learning kiteboarding away from the kids, I think that's a very bad thing! I really don't know how to get it back. Maybe just go kiting and fight it in court. Let the judge decide what the difference is between kiteboarding and windsurfing!!! I think they should see these two sports as the same because they are in many ways!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #18) on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 7:26 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

I also think the Bonarian kids are missing out. I have only been to Bonaire once and have met Ron, Chris, and Sam on several occasions here on Cape Cod. After windsurfing with those guys I can only imagine what they and the rest of the crew would be capable of if they kited. Unfortunately they are not coming here for the competitions anymore as windsurfing has become less popular as a result of kiting. Do you know any of those guys? Have any of the kids tried kiting? is there a shop that hooks them up? - or no?

There was a guy who organised and coordinated every thing for those kids, I have forgotten his name but I think he may able to help if there was reason for the kids. I like the idea of getting the Bonarian kids into the sport, maybe equipment donations would be helpful, I know there was lots of assistance with regard to windsurfing equipment. If you think this strategy would help establish a foothold for kiting on Bonaire please let me know, I may be able to get some rigs down there for those that couldnt otherwise afford it. Is there somebody there who is up to the challenge to teach with a heavy emphasis on safety?

How about the Bonaire Kids Kiting Initiative, BKKI.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #21) on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 10:53 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Welcome to the BKKI!! Good idea!
I'll help the kids and so will the guys from the kiteboardingschool. If the kids could have a opportunaty to go kiting after school it would be great! I'd love to see the kids kiteboarding, they'll love it as much as the other kiters do!
Let me know what you can do for them!

Jeroen

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #19) on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 1:00 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Sounds good, I'll speak with some friends of mine at Best kiteboarding, there into this sort of thing. Meanwhile why dont you get a picture of a couple of kids flying kites with there empty pockets hangin out. Maybe we can approach the authorities with a proposal to let the kids kite after school and within the safe confines of Lac Bay. May I suggest we get the kids well into the water before launching any kites, lets make sure we dont get any of them hurt, safety should be paramount. Also parents should be required to sign a waiver or something.

Stay tuned......

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #20) on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 5:03 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Jeroen, I have good news! I have spoken with Jeff Gansender at Best, he is interested in helping. He also tells me that there is a kitesurfing school on the island that is sponsored by Best, would that be your friend? We should set a time to discuss the potential of the BKKI, and see how we can put a program together. In the meantime can you find out who the gentleman was that use to accompany the Bonaire kids when they traveled here to Cape Cod; find him, tell him that a Cape Codder from the states wants to help get the Bonaire kids on kites and back to Cape Cod for next years "King of the Cape" which will likely include both kiting and windsurfing. Anyways, hope its windy and warm there, its so cold here....:-)I wonder what others on this forum have to say? will you folks support the kids?

Steve Tise
Best Kiteboarding rep. Cape Cod

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Elliott (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #1) on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 5:32 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I have been reading this thread for awhile and feel that some issues have not been discussed that have a bearing on the viability of kiteboarding in Lac Bay. It seems that most of the discussion is from people who are kiters, and people who are divers. So the discussion is framed by two factors: First, the kiter advocates are biased to their sport as expected. The other contributors are mostly non-participants and therefore do not know what is involved in making a kiteboarding area work for everyone.

I sail throughout the San Francisco bay area and in doing so I frequent areas that are used by windsurfers alone, kiters alone and both kiters and windsurfers. We have learned how to work together in making these areas work for all participants, and in general everyone involved is concerned with safety and with preserving access. For that reason, it is necessary in some areas to separate the two sports, and in some areas to ensure that kiters do not infringe on non-participating beach users, such as families with children. Everyone understands this and this has worked out well.

I see some problems with allowing kiters in Lac Bay and would like to hear how these would be addressed:

1. Where will kites launch? Care should be taken to prevent accidents with people on the beach and with the businesses there.
2. Where will kites lay out their lines pre-flight? The beach near the rental businesses is very narrow, and I would forsee the entire area covered with kite lines and ballasted kites, especially if the concessions begin renting.
3. How will the protected areas be preserved? The turtle-grass is off-limit, and only a narrow path between the beach and the open bay exists. Can you guarantee that no kiters will ever walk thru the turtle grass?
4. Same goes for the sea-urchin bed to the left of the concessions. I see this as a safety issue. I would hate to have to walk or worse, body drag out of that area.
5. How can you guarantee that windsurfing access will not be adversely affected by this change? You may think windsurfing has been cancelled, but tell that to Bonaire's national heroes, Tonky and Tati Franz.

As Bonaire is considered a beginner to intermediate spot due to the onshore winds and shallow waters, many beginners of both sports will be involved. This is where I see most of the problems here in San Francisco, places where beginner kiters mix with other users.

How about some real discussion on this idea?

Steve

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #21) on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 7:04 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Steve thank you very much for input. I agree completely that there needs to be a well planned strategy that will insure that everyones interest is addressed. I welcome your inquiry and think that it is a breath of fresh air. Firstly, I can only make suggestions, some maybe useless others I hope constructive.

Having been to Bonaire I understand how tight it is on the beach and as a kiter I understand that this is a critical part of a safe solution. I would recommend that kiters launch only if assisted by a helper and that they be required to launch at the dock or beyond. I see no reason why people couldnt use a turbo launcher (a device that winds the kite lines together and allows people to launch assisted or solo, kiters could simply walk their kites out already attached to the linesthen a helper can assist or the kiter would simply let the kite blow downwind and then water re-launch. As far as laying out lines people could do that behind the beach and once done they would wind their lines on the "turbo" launcher. It is difficult to seperate both activities, i would suggest there be a beginners area for windsurfers that kiters are not allowed in, I think that intermediates and experts in both disciplines can sail in proximity of one another as they do in other places; maybe limiting the number of kiters, or establishing hours in which kiters were allowed would also help, I would be happy if we could at least get in lac after say... 3:00pm? Also there could be an added requirement that people be certified before being able to kite there. Lastly, I dont see why the fate of windsurfer are tied to the kiters, if it doesnt work kiting gets banned again and windsurfers could stay. I think it is important that I say I dont go for that "windsurfing is cancelled thing" I for one want to return to bonaire so that I can kite while my wife Windsurfs and my children learn either. I think that windsurfers and kiters are very much linked, the fact that kiting isnt allowed in Lac is probably what has hurt the concession vendors.

Speaking of the vendors, this I think is critical, I'm sure that nobody wants to see a bunch of kiters show up and kite without being associated with a vendor, no doubt that would upset the long established vendor activity. I would suggest that kiters who bring there own equipment be required to register, pay, and sail only as a guest of the vendors, this way there is a degree of accountability for people who dont want to play by the rules. I should also say that I dont think local Bonairians should have to pay; however they should still be required to sail out of the vendor areas.

I think that the Bonairian super heroes such as Tonkey and Tati would benefit from kiting; either themselves or their siblings, why not create as much opportunity for the kids as possible.

I hope this answers some questions, I'm sure there are others, please let me know what you think.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jay odonnell (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #1) on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 8:14 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I'm a 4-time windsurfer/diver visitor to bonaire who would not return if lac bay was opened up for kiting as it would be too dangerous for me and my windsurfer girlfriend. If the issues raised by Steve Elliot are seriously examined by someone knowledgeable in both sports the only conclusion that could be drawn it that the amount of physical space required to rig,launch, and sail kites makes it impossible for both to co-exist in Lac Bay. Kiters require huge amounts of space to rig, launch, and land, and when underway require wide berth to avoid line entanglement with windsurfers. The width of the sailing lanes just offshore from JibeCity/Rogers is not sufficiently wide for both... and anyone suggesting otherwise hasn't sailed the area, is in-denial, or has an agenda. If someone was to propose that kiters and windsurfers segregate into upper-reaches (near the reef) or close in-shore reaches near the launch, that would improve it somewhat, but fails to consider how the sailors/kiters get to/from the launch to the designated "lanes". The situation is made worse when new kiters are learning ... imagine a new kiter getting involuntarily launched when near the Sorobon resort dock, JibeCity launch, or Rogers, and crashing into whatever lies downwind ... buildings, beach furniture, people. Guaranteed this will happen sooner or later. Beginning windsurfers who would be clueless about kite entanglement are going to be hit or entagled in lines ... guaranteed. I carry a kite line cutter because of two close calls.

Large areas like cape cod and hatteras have the physical space to accommodate both sports. We had to learn how to accommodate kites in the columbia gorge where I sail, and the solution in most areas involves separation of kites from sailors and beachgoers. Works OK until some bozo (at the Rufus site) gets out-of-control too close to shore, hits a tree, and smashes into a couple on shore who are taken to the hospital, which closed the rufus area to kiters. One bozo ruined it for all the other kiters.

I just don't see both sports working together in LacBay, and wish it could be different as I have wanted to take additional kiting lessons and agree that LacBay would be a good spot, but not during the busy winter season when we typically visit. The only scenario that might work is kiting when winds are below sailable threshold, or during low-season when the number of sailors is low and some kind of system devised that controls access.

Jay

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #22) on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 11:20 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

There is allready a plan that has all the 'rules' in it to kite safe in Lac Bay. I am really sure that there is no problem with windsurfers if the kiters (as it was) stay downwind of the windsurfing area!!! Too bad that other people do not see that. I'm getting a little tired of the defense I need to give to my sport. It wil be perfect if kiting is alowed before 10h and after 17h....only downwind of the windsurfers. They stay upwind. No problem. Plenty of space and everybody is happy....
To get back to the seagrass....aaaargh...again...Take a good look at the windsurfers!!! Then talk about the seagrass again! You should have taken a better look at the kiters on Lac bay (when it was alowed) They never walked through the seagrass because we told everybody not to do that!!! Everybody listened! So please don't talk about kiting and seagrass please.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #22) on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 9:19 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

good morning all, Jay I think the only thing that can be done to to address your concerns is to limit the amount of kiters on the water. Knowing the layout as I do I would think that Lac could support approximately 12 kiters and within the lanes you speak of. In the event that kiting was to be restricted to downwind and in the deep water off the mangroves there is likely space for more. Also establishing hours for kiters as I stated previously should give people who dont want to windsurf amongst the kiters an opportunity to do that. Lastly, I think everyone needs to understand that any effort to allow kiting is at the heart an effort to give the Bonarians a place to kite that is safe and condusive to learning etc. I have heard a lot from people who visit the island and enjoy it very much however I think that any policies created for Lac should address and include those opportunities that can provide the best opportunities for the residents of Bonaire, there is no doubt in my mind that Bonaire has great local talent and that Bonaire should be represented in future pro tours. If in the end only residents of Bonaire could use Lac for both windsurfing and kiting that would be fine with me, I think whats most important is that the island provide the resource at Lac to their community before addressing concerns from outside.

Obviously that would not be my first choice but I think it illustrates where the priorities should be, all other factors must be secondary.

Lastly, Jay it cant hurt to have a knife but after 5 years of kiting I have never known them to be used unless kiting in waves, and even then they are next to useless. There is more of an opportunity to get hurt while windsurfing then by an encounter with an errant kiter. After five years of kiting my worst injuries over the last twenty years have come from windsurfing not kiting, and yes, the list is long.

So to recap, there are several scenarios: kiting hours, number of kiters, kiter certification, downwind, upwind, water launching, water landing, access thru vendor areas only, and so on, I'm sure there are many other ways that it can be managed also, whats most important is adopting a policy of inclusion rather then exclusion. Once more, any decision should firstly address the interest of the kids of Bonaire who are missing the opportunities represented in the fastest growing watersport in the world.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #23) on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 2:40 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Agreed, tnx Stephan, wish there were more openmind people like you on this Island, hihi.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jay odonnell (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #2) on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 4:19 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephan, I think the only safe and feasible option to accommodate both sports in LacBay is what Jeroen proposes, which maintains separation. I suggested the "lanes" approach only to illustrate the problems that occur when both sports occupy the same place, and do not believe lanes would be safe in LacBay. Also the idea of having the narrow beach between JibeCity and Rogers covered with inflated kites and lines would be unworkable if that is what you were proposing for the vendor areas, unless those businesses dropped windsurfing and catered exclusively to kiting (and I would stop coming to Bonaire).

You also try to downplay the safety issues with kites, but fail to acknowledge how dangerous kites can be when they get out of control, real cases of kiters getting killed when involuntarily launched and smacked onto the water or ground, finger decapitations, entanglement with bystanders, etc. If I could post links here other readers would get an earful. Trying to dismiss the kiting safety issue and suggesting that windsurfing is more dangerous is both incorrect and misleading. I carry a dakine line cutter (not a knife) because I have had lines momentarily entangled with my rig when some inept kiter tried to sail in a windsurf area at the gorge. There are many good kiters which I have shared the water with, but some bozos make stupid decisions and jeapordize safety.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jay odonnell (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #3) on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 5:43 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

For those readers who are unfamiliar with some of the kiting safety issues I reference above, I suggest you do a google search on kitemare, defined as "A Kitemare is when the kite tries to kill you, but you survive to tell the tale". Some sobering but realistic reading for anyone considering the sport, or it's consequences. One of my windsurfing buddies in utah lost one of his friends to a kitemare last july.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #23) on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 7:17 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hey Jay, I dont think I have down played the potential dangers by suggesting that kiting be allowed. Yes seperation as Jay has mentioned would lessen the chances of an accident with other windsurfers yet it would also put the kiters in closer proximity to the beach. I think that limiting the number of kiters would be the best way, most of the windsurfers that venture out to the reef are skilled enough that they can easily sail with kiters, once out, there is sufficient space for all. When I was there it was at the height of windsurfings popularity, it was in April and there was all of 4 or five guys out there spread out over the entire bay leaving ample room for many more kiters and windsurfers. People, what is the big deal here? allowing kiting under the controls discussed here would be fine, and would do a lot for the locals and vendors alike, lighten up and let Lac fourish under kiting.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #24) on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 7:25 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Jay said,

"There are many good kiters which I have shared the water with, but some bozos make stupid decisions and jeapordize safety."

solution = kiter certification or equivelant proficiency test.

remember most of those bozos you are referring to drive cars, drink alcohol, own guns, drive to fast, kite and windsurf and likely beat their families, you cant avoid them, there everywhere.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jay odonnell (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #4) on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 8:05 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephan,
The problem with having kiters upwind near the reef is how do they get from the launch to the inside reef area? Answer:sail thru the main windsurfing area. Certification is fine, until a bozo comes along and doesn't follow the rules, or a non-bozo kiter has a mishap and a kitemare happens. Most kitemare posts don't involve bozos but rather experience kiters where a momentary problem becomes a kitemare and bad things happen. Put the two sports together into a confined area and its guaranteed that accidents will happen.

I also think that having kite concessions along the N-S oriented shoreline between sorobon resort past Rogers is a really bad idea, since this area has onshore winds -- which if you read various kitemare posts is a recipe for disaster since the launching/landing out-of-control kite+kiter would be headed downwind onto the beach, buildings, and beachgoers.

You should focus your efforts on pursuing Joeran's idea of having a launch and kiting area to the N of Rogers and around the west end of the point. This is probably the best chance you have of getting kiting back. The rest of LacBay lacks proper orientation for a kite launch, and the area SE of sorobon puts kiters into the windsurfing and snorkel/swimmer floating dock access areas.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #25) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 8:05 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

I think there may be some confusion. My suggestion is that kites get launched approximately 100 meters out into the bay, at or beyond the the Sorobon raft. As a result of the shallow water I see no reason why people couldnt walk way out and launch from a very safe distance form everything. As an adjunct to this I see the vendors employee working as kite assitant as they do the windsurfers. A person would simply layout their lines behind the vendor areas, wrap them back on the bar with a "turbo launcher" they would then inflate their kites, attach them to the lines while they are still wrapped around the bar you would then walk way out with a vendors employee such as Roan who would walk the kite out with the kiter and hold the kite while the kiter unwound his or her lines and then launch from a very safe distance from everything in a minimum of a two feet of water. When coming back in kiters should be required to self land and retrieve their kites or tap on their heads and wait for assistance to come out beyond the dock (I assume that it is still there?)

As a result of Lacs very shallow water, Bonaire has a unique opportunity to get all the troublesome issues relative to launching on the beach off of it. Most instructors and beginner kiters and experts would prefer to get in the water to launch and the further away from land the better.

As far as kites all over the beach it is easy to stack kites within one another, you can get six kites to occupy the footprint of a single; and similar to windsurfing I see the paid helper coordinating the kites on the beach as they do the windsurf rigs where they put them in the shade.

This is just one scenario.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Elliott (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #2) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 1:07 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, When I'm in Bonaire, I usually sail up between the reef and the raft, to get away from the furball downwind. Up there you have to be mindful of the nudies, because the often snorkle along the reef. I predict that you will get resistance from them.

In an earlier post you said that kiters should stay downwind of the windsurfers. Did you mean the lagoon where they have the KOTC competition?

You seem to have a lot of concessions in mind for getting kiting on the bay. I would say that for sure the number would have to be limited, due to the number of other users and the size of the area. That sounds like an unworkable solution. If I had to "wait in line" to windsurf, I would go crazy. I have enough trouble waiting for a lane in the lap pool I swim in.

Steve

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #26) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 2:00 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Steve said

"You seem to have a lot of concessions in mind for getting kiting on
the bay. I would say that for sure the number would have to be
limited, due to the number of other users and the size of the area.
That sounds like an unworkable solution. If I had to "wait in line" to
windsurf, I would go crazy. I have enough trouble waiting for a lane
in the lap pool I swim in."

what is so unworkable? I cant speak for all the other kiters but I can for myself, If I was allowed to kite within Lac I would get out on the water and launch and then get out of the way, the bay is huge. I would then sail upwind and out beyond where everyone else goes, the deep area has a little chop for pop, thats where I would be. How much room do a dozen windsurfers need? You make it sound as though you would be dodging guys left and right which is not the case. I think somebody needs to estblish basic rules, limit the number of kiters, and get the launching of kites off the beach, then after a few weeks re-evealuate the situation. This is indeed workable, I dont see what the big deal is, this is a manageable situation for all, dont be so pesimistic. I wasnt suggesting that they limit the number of windsurfers, just kiters. Why not allow both vendors a limit of six or so kiters a day, they could book reservations just as they have to now plan around how many windsurfing guest they have.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Elliott (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #3) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 2:05 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I understand that you weren't talking about limiting windsurfers. You were talking about limiting kiters. My comment that this is unworkable is from a kiter standpoint. If I were a kiter deciding where to go on vacation, and I knew in Bonaire I may have to wait due to kiter count limitations, I would not go there.

Steve

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #27) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 2:32 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Yeah but what if you lived there? As far as being a guest on vacation, I have suggested that unless you are local that there should be a limit and that all kiters with exception of the local guys would be required to pay to access the bay through the vendors. This way I could plan a trip and expect to be able to access the water throughout my vacation, just as I would upgrade my windsurf rental to include top of the line equipment; which there is only so much to go around.

I think that limiting the amount of kiters should be only for a majority of the day, during the late afternoon I see no reason why there couldnt be more kiters out there, in my experience the situation at Lac is similar to skiing, most folks pack it in and go back to there rentals early, most of the time i was there I would get there in the morning sail a bit and then nap, lol. I would then go back in the late afternoon and would end up sailing solo or with just a few others after 3:00pm, especially if you were out at the reef area, also I have heard that there is literally nobody there during the week.

It seems that no matter what I say or how I say it, it always comes down to the most intolerant contingent of windsurfers that object to the kiters. Beach goers love to watch and the vendors could use added revenue and in my experience it makes for a much more dynamic and celebrated atmosphere, if people would just dismiss there fears long enough to try to work something out I feel that the situation would indeed be a win win for everyone.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #28) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 2:43 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Jeroen, we need to speak with Elvis about the potential of the BKKI, I understand he is not very into kiting but as with the windsurfing he may be able to help coordinate and distribute gear to those who could not otherwise afford it. My friend on the island says that it would be best if you were to approach him from the afterschool perspective, let him know that you and I would like to help the kids get into kiting and that there may be a real opportunity to establish a long term program for the future. If he isnt into it then we can go it alone, but something tells me Elvis is a smart guy and will recognise an opportunity when he sees it.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jay odonnell (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #5) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 3:31 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen said "I think there may be some confusion.."

OK, Now I see what you were proposing, though like Steve Elliot I see resistance from the sorobon resort and issues moving the kites to/from the vendor areas to the launch site. While your proposal might work for advanced kiters I don't see it working for beginners like me, since I am likely to drift downwind or loose control and enter the windsurfing lanes. And the idea of moving inflated kites into and out-of crowded downwind vendor areas like JibeCity and Rogers seems dangerous, and the amount of space req'd to have even 1 inflated kite on the beach will present a problem during holiday periods like now. I don't know if there might be some way to setup a new kite vendor concession SE of sorobon resort or if this would be permitted due to the ecology.. That area would keep the kites out of the wsurf vendor areas.

Not sure you are going to get very far pursuing LacBay kite access due to the many factors identified in the above posts, the failed first attempt, and the long history of wsurfing there. You will be more successful making the case if you avoid statements like: "most intolerant contingent of windsurfers", "old gaurd at Lac Bay" "windsurfing is on its way out" etc... in your arguments, where you come off like a jerk and are a poor spokesman for your cause

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Elliott (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #4) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 4:41 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I have to respond to Stephen's last post to me. I don't see where you get off about me being "the most intolerant contingent of windsurfers" based on my comments. I'm trying to add _realistic_ discussion to your ideas. I'm not totally against kiters in Lac Bay, but you'll have to sell me on it. I think I would object to it if it were to affect me personally such that I would no longer enjoy myself there.

I think you need to step back and realize what you are asking of everyone. Face it. Kiter's can be a PITA on the beach and in the water, if they don't respect everyone's right to the same. I'm a very tolerant sailor. As long as I'm powered up, I'll put up with about anything.

So, get real about this. Think about what you are asking for others. Not just windsurfers, but the many non-participants that go to Lac Bay and expect to have a safe place to sit on the beach. Come up with some good proposals that work for everyone and you may succeed.

And if you come out west, I will personally take you to 3rd avenue, Crissy, Sherman Island or anywhere else to demonstrate how we work things out amicably and equitably here.

Steve

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #29) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 4:43 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

All I was saying is that it is only the "intlerant windsurfers" not "all windsurfers" BTW, I do both. I know many windsurfers that I sail with regulalrly and none of them have a problem with kiters, infact we have fun boosting in and around them while they blast by and continuously use us as jibe makers.

my comments are not meant to inflame or otherwise slam windsurfers, yet it is true that windsurfing has suffered tremendously over the last few years and that the industry is on a decline while kiting is growing, dont shoot the messenger.

What is the problem with walking a kite out of the vendors areas and out aswell as walking them back? you didnt think I meant to walk them in while they are still in the air, did you? Also what does Sorobon have to do with anything? I'm not suggesting they let us use their raft or dock, I just used that as a landmark. I know Sorobon has been their a long time but I'll bet you they would enjoy the show even more if kiters were in the mix also.

I dont think kiting ever had a chance to fail at Lac, it was political pressure not anything more.

Lastly, I will have to say something that I am sure is going to piss a lot of people off but it is meant only to illustrate my contentions that Bonaire is squandering a great resource. So here it goes, If Lac was open to all and market pressure was brought to bear on the resource I think that Bonaire would potentially profit far better under kiting then it has with windsurfing why? -becuase it potentially could be a world class kiting destination unlike it is for windsurfing, its shallow waters and flat terrain are only suited for beginners and intermediates, and freestyle experts, under kiting it would enjoy all levels of riders and likely garner a reputaton throughout the world as a premier kiting destination. I am not suggesting for a second that wndsurfing should play second fiddle but to not grasp the opportunity for kiting is tantamount to throwing money away, somethng the government can not afford to do. In the end I wonder at what point the economic interest of the indiginous people of Bonaire be regarded as a priority over the visitors to the island. At the end of the day Bonaire can either have its Lac the way it is and follow a declining market, or they can embrace the future with enthusiasm and manage a solution that has theirs and everyones interest in mind.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #30) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 4:50 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I have never met a visitor to a beach that did not like to watch kiting, infact I have met several people who come regulalrly to watch and at the age of 42 I now have good friends in there 70's, they help launch, they take pics and regularly participate in the after session party.

FYI, I was born in SanFran, my famlies out there and yes I know how it works, why dont you share your experience and enlighten me instead of trying to contradict everything I say.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #31) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 4:55 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

"add _realistic_ discussion to your ideas."

Hmmm... have I missed something, tell me how you would make it work, I'd like to hear it.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jay odonnell (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #6) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 5:21 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I continue to have difficulty seeing how putting kiting back in LacBay will be an economic boost for a variety of reasons:
-- limiting the number of kiters to address safety issues will limit concession revenues.
-- you can pack around 3-4x more wsurfers into the same area...I have counted 35-40 on the water on a busy day
-- unlikely you will get the same number of kiters occupying the same space, even if wsurfing was to die as a sport.
-- I don't see Ernst or Elvis jeapordizing their businesses by risking loss of their wsurf customers just to try an experiment to see if kiting can be made to work again and likely you have further alienated both of them in this post.
-- accidents, which are inevitible with kiting and exaggerated due to the geography and multiple-use model of LacBay, will shut kiting down again.

Your try to (re)position yourself in these posts as having Bonaires interests in-mind, but when I read your posts what comes thru is your narrow-minded self interest in having a new kiting place.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Elliott (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #5) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 5:31 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen,

I don't kite. I don't need to make it work. You do because you want kiting in Lac Bay. Many of your ideas are good ones. The only one I think I've contradicted is whether a kiter would go to Bonaire if there were a use count limit.

People do love to watch kiters. People also love to watch windsurfers, especially the type of windsurfer Bonaire produces and attracts. You feel kiting would be an attraction to Bonaire for participants and non-participants alike. I don't disagree with that until the point where the kiter (or windsurfer) detracts from the experience of the spectator. When that happens, you get shut down. We've had a very popular beach in Southern California shut down to kiters and windsurfers due to inconsiderate kiters. I'd hate to see that happen to Lac Bay.

Steve

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Elliott (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #6) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 5:41 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen,

I think you should drop the argument that windsurfing is dying and the future is kiting. We heard that out here on the west coast for years. We are not seeing this trend at all. I think sites that have strong (20 Kt) winds on a regular basis are showing no mass exodus from windsurfing to kiting. Maybe on the east coast, but out here in San Francisco, Gorge, Maui, Baja, lots of sailors, many of them are young and good freestylers.

Steve

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #32) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 6:59 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I wouldnt go as far to say that windsurfing is dieing, all I have tried to suggest is that the market has reached its limit as kiting will also. As far as kitings limited potential revenue contribution, be real, if kiting was allowed as it should it would contribute as much as the windsurfing easily. Bonaires shallow water, butter flat conditions, and moderate breezes are a kiters dream come true, truely perfect. I was there for two weeks, I had maybe three 6.0 days windsurfing the rest were 8m days, long hot days. I windsurfed alone.

Anyways, those conditions are pretty typical in Bonaire, and what would otherwise be a long hot day with one guy on the water, could be one day at Lac stuffed with as many kiters as the island has patience for. Currently the situation as I would like would have it is the way it is now, a bias towards windsurfing with kitings contribution welcomed. I would also just add, hypothetically, if it was kiters only with no windsurfers, which do you think would be more sustainable?

Steve, in California you have waves, thats why thats the case there. Here on Cape Cod we have a little bit of both and that supports a great mix of kiters and windsurfers, so lets be real, Bonaire is suited for kiting, as Cal is to windsurfing.

If I lived on Bonaire I would likely dehydrate to death from drooling over the place, good luck keeping it locked up forever.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #33) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 7:02 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I wouldnt go as far to say that windsurfing is dieing, all I have tried to suggest is that the market has reached its limit as kiting will also. As far as kitings limited potential revenue contribution, be real, if kiting was allowed as it should it would contribute as much as the windsurfing easily. Bonaires shallow water, butter flat conditions, and moderate breezes are a kiters dream come true, truely perfect. I was there for two weeks, I had maybe three 6.0 days windsurfing the rest were 8m days, long hot days. I windsurfed alone.

Anyways, those conditions are pretty typical in Bonaire, and what would otherwise be a long hot day with one guy on the water, could be one day at Lac stuffed with as many kiters as the island has patience for. Currently the situation as I would like would have it is the way it is now, a bias towards windsurfing with kitings contribution welcomed. I would also just add, hypothetically, if it was kiters only with no windsurfers, which do you think would be more sustainable?

Steve, in California you have waves, thats why thats the case there. Here on Cape Cod we have a little bit of both and that supports a great mix of kiters and windsurfers, so lets be real, Bonaire is suited for kiting, as Cal is to windsurfing, share the water guys, have a heart.

If I lived on Bonaire I would likely dehydrate to death from drooling over the place, good luck keeping it locked up forever.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Yana girl (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #392) on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 9:56 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Steve E.

I am not a kiter or windsurfer. But I dive and travel. Your comment

"If I were a kiter deciding where to go on vacation, and I knew in Bonaire I may have to wait due to kiter count limitations, I would not go there."

made me smile.

I would have never experienced the Galapago Islands if I had not ignored the warnings "Do not go to dive...they only allow X number of divers at a time per island"

I went and had one of the best times of my life. I went on hope and faith that I would be in the water. The sea life was incredible. Nothing like seeing penguins and seals underwater.

My point is I would go.....just on the hope of getting closer to an exciting experience and dream.

I have "no dog in this fight" :-) just letting you know there are a few of us out here who believe in giant leaps of faith. :-)

Yana

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kent Kune (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #1) on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 5:38 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I don't think I can add much to this discussion because pretty much everything has been said and discussed but I'd still like to give my opinion so here goes :-)

I'm a kitesurfer myself (I used to windsurf) and I also have my PADI advanced and do some occasional diving. I've kitesurfed in a lot of places, mostly in over-crowded Holland. The sport has been exponentially growing over the past few years, also in Holland. I found that the best way to allow everybody to do his favourite sport and still be safe is by creating different areas for different sports (or even time-tables where one sport is allowed in the morning and the other in the afternoon). The best and most safe spots I surfed at had designated areas for kiters (or windsurfers etc) marked by buoys, signs or flags etc. No swimmers or divers are allowed in the kite-zone and vice-versa. This way everybody knows where he/she can go and there will be no conflicts or dangerous situations between the different discilpines.

A big problem with kitesurfing is that is has a reputation to be dangerous and also that most people do not know much about it let alone know how to safely share the water with kiters.

So in short, I think the answer for Bonaire should be a combination of legislation (designated areas, only allow certified kiters & keep clear rules) and informing the public on how to safely be around kiters. By the way, one big safety tip for being around kiters is: stay upwind of them, if you do that nothing can happen to you. A kiter can safely pass you by a distance of say 2 feet as long as he/she is downwind of you.

Sadly, I don't think legislation of this kind or organizing kitesurfing on Bonaire in this way is going to happen anytime soon (things don't seem to go that fast on Bonaire). So until that time I think it's up to everybody who has to share the water to keep an open mind and apply common sense to maintain optimal safety. Kiters should stay away from the shore and watch out for divers. Divers should make it clear to kiters where they are and use a safety sausage. I also think that the local kiteschool could play a role in organizing "kiteboarding on Bonaire" in a safe way (for both kiters and non-kiters).

About that incident where the kiter almost hit a diver: I cannot believe that a kiter would intentionally want to ride into a diver because that would hurt the kiter just as much as it would the diver... however if you are a diver and you feel you were put in a dangerous situation by a kiter then the obvious thing to do would be to go talk to this kiter and find out what was going on? A good conversation usually helps and most kiters are actually quite nice people! :-)

my 2 cts.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By william bentz (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #2) on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 12:12 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

don't go to Bonaire to kite.....
no beaches...all sharp rock everywhere...
only good spot is Lac Bay and they have banned kiting there.
Local political scene is to protect windsurfers and nudists and ban kiting..
ridiculous....
i knew it was banned before i got to Kon Tiki resort..which is a beautiful place..so i went with open eyes...but i didn't realize they had no beach on island???
but if you can't kite there then it is frankly not worth going (if that is only reason).
I've been Brazil, Mexico, DR, PR, costa Rica, Turks & Caicos, bahamas...keys...i'm from florida..
forget Bonaire...not worth it if you are going to kite...
plenty of other options out there. They have taken their best location and turned it into a freak show!! nudists and windsurfers...throw in a mix of children.??? flat out wrong!!
STAY AWAY!!!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Elliott (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #10) on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 1:57 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

So, your idea for their best location is to ban nudists, windsurfers, and um... children??? Now there's an idea with lots of potential.

Not.

Steve

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gerd Stecker (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #1) on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 7:23 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

YES william - PLEASE STAY AWAY - we don't need these intolerant egoistic people here!

a couple of years ago it was funny to see some kiter, but then the lac gets overcrowded with them and it becomes more and more dangerous because there where to much intolerant egoistic ruthless kiter on the lac.
so i'm happy that they have stopped kiting!

if the 'new freaks' show consideration for the old 'freak show' where will be less problems!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hendrik Wuyts (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #10) on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 7:37 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Freak show or no Freak show, Lac or no Lac bay, kitesurfing is just the ultimate sports imaginable.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1487) on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 7:54 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Um, William - Bonaire is a relatively conservative island. The only place where nudity is allowed is Sorobon.

That said, the fact is that some people are not ashamed of the bodies God gave them, and you obviously are. Some people don't think it right to be teaching their children that their bodies are something to be ashamed of - and given the growing number of kids both boys and girls with eating disorders, I'm inclined to agree with them. You obviously do not.

Perhaps you're right in taking your intolerance elsewhere.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #34) on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 1:43 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Once again the Bonaire talkers have heard from another disgruntled kiter. William I agree with you completely. The people and authorities have no clue what it is they are doing. Banning kiting before any due diligence has been done relative to a compromise is ridiculous. Why not at a minimium creat hours for kiters at Lac Bay. If they were to open Lac up after 2-3 pm that would be enough for me and others; we could resume our passion for Bonaire and contribute to the economic engine that is Lac bay. I'd like to remind all you anti kiters that the only intolerant people are you, you have banned us -remember. I feel badly for the kids in Bonaire, your ignorance has cost them dearly. FYI, there is no pro windsurfing tour anymore, racing and freestyle competitions are spotty and no longer offer any carat to attend. Kiting is the future for professonal wind and water sports, so next time you look out at Lac bay just remember the kids you have screwed, profanity removed by moderator you NIMBY's you have no clue.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Elliott (BonaireTalker - Post #11) on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 1:55 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen,

Man, you guys just don't have a clue. Bentz says it's a "freak show" because of windsurfers, nudists and _children_. You call people ignorant and intolerant? You're not going to get anywhere with attitudes like that.

And let me say one thing about the "future for professonal wind and water sports". Water sports include not only windsurfing and kiting, but diving, surfing, jet-skiing, water-skiing, wakeboarding, kayaking, sailing, and fishing. Have I forgotten anyone? Your view on water sports is pathetically myopic.

What's the difference between an amateur and a pro kiter? Answer: about 2 weeks.

Steve

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #35) on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 5:16 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Steve you are a Post edited due to violation of TOS. Name calling is not allowed on Bonaire Talk. Please observe the Terms of Service. Talk about myopic, you sir have absolutely no clue. Firstly, I am a windsurfer also. I have twenty years of jumping and jibing and can likely sail circles around you. I have been kiting for about 5 years and while I can hold my own I am very, very far from being a pro. It is ovious that you along with your NIMBY friends are trying very hard to hold on to the last vestage of windsurfing segregation, you are doing it at the peril of native Boanarians and if you cared at all about the community in which you speak of you would understand the effect of your detrimental and reckless opinion. I very much miss Bonaire, both Lac bay and the friendly culture that is Bonaire. If you understood the mission of Elvis (who you likely dont even know of) you would understand the potential of kiting within the context of the young people. You and your pals have done a great job screwing over the interest of native Bonarians, kids who I have met such as Ronald -AKA Ro or Chris or Sammy all have showed great talent and potential to represent Bonaire on a world pro tour. It is unfortunate that windsurfing no longer commands the critical mass it once did and has resulted in the kids from Bonaire not coming here to the states to compete. Last I looked kitesurfing is expanding, new disciplines are being developed every season, sponsorships and rep deals are there for the taking. You no doubt have not tried to kite, you lack the spine and mind to explore the best sport ever. Its truly sad that you folks cant find a compromise and have instead buried your heads in the sand, I hope you choke on it.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Elliott (BonaireTalker - Post #12) on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 6:59 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Tise:
Dude, you really got an edge. You need a sesh bad. Jumping and jibing. Wow. I'm impressed.

I don't really have an interest in this. I don't live in Bonaire, go there once in awhile. Bonaire is not my back yard, so NIMBY doesn't apply to me. It just bothers me when somebody throws a tantrum and calls everybody else a bunch of names.

BTW, I'm not talking about you, just the original poster who called Lac Bay a freak show because it included (gasp) children.

Steve

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1488) on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 7:33 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I may be wrong, because I think William may have had spittle drooling down the sides of his mouth when he first posted this, but I think he objected to the children being exposed (no pun intended) to nudists.

Why he lumps nudists in with windsurfers is beyond me, but I suppose when you take into consideration the general tenor of his posts here, it makes perfect sense.

His complaint about the lack of beaches certainly indicates to me that he didn't waste too much of his time actually researching his vacation choice.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #36) on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 6:26 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Steve you are correct, I do need a session bad, tomorrow I leave for the Outer Banks, I wish it was Bonaire. I wasnt trying to impress you with jumping and jibing, I have more in my repetoire then that trust me; not that I am a big freestyle guy I'll take open water any day. I'm not sure there are many advanced windsurfers hitting Lac everyday, the flat water is nice for a day or two but by then I'm bored out of my mind. That is likely the primary reason that I think Bonaire is much better suited for kiting then it is for windsurfing. Personally I dont give a crap about the nudist, I enjoy windsurfing, snorkeling, scuba, kayaking etc My only issue in Bonaire is the anti kite attitude. Both your comments and other critical voices I have heard about the inclusion of kiting within Lac are so bias that its obvious that there is little objectivity left. A little lesson in demographics in case everyone thinks all kiters are long haired teen punks with foul mouths; I sir, am 42 years old, I'm an architect and father of two. I have commited myself to sailing for the last twenty plus years, I've invested in property near my passion and will continue to do so. Lastly, most my friends who kite are either 2 or 3 years younger or older then I. I pay for our family vacations, I pick (to some extent) the destination. Bonaire should be on the short list however I have not been able to return to Bonaire to particapate in the diverse activities that Bonaire offers. This is all a result of the intolerant people that govern lac. They have demonstrated their limited imagination and continue to follow a path that will only hurt themselves, and more importantly the people on the Island that care more about where I rent, where I get my food, beer etc. Their is more going on here then just the activities at Lac, does anyone else get this besides me?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Elliott (BonaireTalker - Post #13) on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 6:16 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Have fun at Outer Banks. Wish I were going too. We're in our 5th week of solid rain in Cali. No end in sight. My only sessions have been storm winds, and I'm getting kinda tired of them.

Steve

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By william bentz (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #5) on Saturday, April 8, 2006 - 6:45 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

my only real point is that kiteboarding should be allowed in Lac Bay...
there are many places to kiteboard in the world and Bonaire is one of them. I didn't find any soft sand on the island other than Lac Bay. My point was that it would be good for the Bonaire economy to allow kiteboarders in Lac Bay. Its currently BANNED!! Please don't confuse kiteboarding with windsurfing. Windsurfing is allowed and kiteboarding is not. Its no big deal....just a point I was trying to make....
Its been a week since I've been to Bonaire. I travel a lot...I've never participated in one of these bulletin boards but its kinda funny to read all the opinions....
Reef conservation?? whatever...
tourist conservation?? whatever...
Kiteboarders?? whatever...
Windsurfers?? who cares...whatever..
Bonaire??...been there done that...moving on..
i'm outta here...signing off...and good luck

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Simon (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #5) on Monday, April 10, 2006 - 4:20 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I did not read the whole thread on this...but it seems like the same old same old. Every year at about this time I start to plan a vacation and Bonaire is on the short list....but again it loses because of inexplicable inability to find a workable compromise that would create a safe place for novice kitesurfing. I have been to Bonaire several times and will return again, but with diving and kiting high on my fun list this constant battle over use of the wind and the sea is a big turn off. Maybe you could fill a few more AJ flights if you encouraged kiting...it's a growing sport from my observations....and very welcome in Cozumel.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pete Peterson (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #1) on Saturday, September 2, 2006 - 12:42 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

What the heck, let's reactivate the carnage!

I'm an advanced intermediate windsurfer who just returned from my first visit to Bonaire in August 2006. Had a great time, the wind could have been a little better (I won't come in August next time!), but Lac Bay is a beautiful sailing site. I was disappointed that it's not bigger. As an Old Fart, I like to sail in shallow water, so I can use minimum energy to get started after I blow my jibe.

My standard sailing spot is Barnegat Bay at the New Jersey Shore. The windsurfers and the kiteboarders coexist nicely there because we respect each other's space and THERE'S LOTS OF SPACE ON BARNEGAT BAY. A kiteboard requires a huge area compared to a windsurfer, but it's easy for both to maneuver around each other if you've got the room.

Space is the problem at Lac Bay. Between the advanced windsurfers (the free-styling Bonaire Boys are amazing!), novice windsurfers, and people enjoying the beach (nicest on Bonaire) and the water, I found the sailing area at Lac to be a little tricky to navigate in the area immediately in front of Jibe City and The Windsurf Place. Kiteboarding just wouldn't work there with the onshore winds. A kiteboarder would have to wade or tack way out toward the reef to have the room needed for sailing.

Kiteboarding at Lac might work if they launched (to the "left") down toward the public beach and sailed only in that end of the Bay. The kiters in Barnegat Bay always launch 50-100 meters away from the windsurfer launch and that works out fine.



 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #38) on Thursday, October 5, 2006 - 4:16 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

OK, so its been about year since I started this thread and yes once again I'm now considering my options for a winter trip with the family. My guess is that kiting in lac Bay is still off-limits and as a result i will have to once again (third time now) have to consider another location. If things have changed or are being considered for change I would like to know, does anyone have an idea on the developments of the situation? hasnt anyone considered a proposal to get kiters into lac on a trial basis; either afternoon hours or the creation of a zone? At this point it must be getting pretty obvious to Elvis and the crew that windsurfers are having to share the water everywhere, why not in Bonaire. I sail with poleborders everytime I ride and have never had a problem in five seasons, all the bogus horror stories are just that, bogus. Cmon Bonaire, your sitting on perfect kiting territory and only a marginal windsurfing destination, lets work together and get a safe and popular spot for all to ride. wheres the outrage? lets get the kids goin, the PKRA is the next step in the evolution of professional water sports, tell me, are there any rational voices and a forum to be heard on Bonaire..... Curacao is looking pretty good...

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2942) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 6:24 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Bogus horror stories? I don't think so.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1737) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 9:02 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

That statement seemed pretty cavalier to me too, Seb. If Stephen bothered to read OTHER threads than his own he'd have seen first person scary experiences.

"Cmon Bonaire, your sitting on perfect kiting territory and only a marginal windsurfing destination", notice diving didn't get mentioned? I doubt the TCB is fretting much about losing Stephen's business, but have a diver get decapitated by a kiteboarder and you can bet they would be scrambling to try to pick up the pieces of their broken tourism industry.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #27) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 12:32 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Nobody is gonna be hit if the divers are just doing what they should do like in the rest of the world!!!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Reem (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2504) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 1:22 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

"Nobody is gonna be hit if the divers are just doing what they should do like in the rest of the world!!!"

"Just stay out of the kiters way, all along the shore, divers, and you won't have any problems"???

I haven't heard one incident of a diver endangering a kiter. All have been a kiter arrogantly endangering a diver. Not all kiters have this attitude, I am sure, but enough do to cause the problems (and the others don't police their own!).

The kiter attitudes expressed above is where the problem lies.

For the first time in all this, I have decided that the kiters must go from the west side since too many of them refuse to 'live together'.

The same reason they are banned from Lac.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #503) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 1:46 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Jeroen, with your posting you show your disregard of the rest of the people living or visiting Bonaire. All the stories written on BT in the different threads don't even show the size of the problem, there are soooooo many more people complaining - divers, snorklers, beach goers.... why don't you start in educating the kite surfers about the dive flag, the sausage etc ??? Why don't you start educating the kite surfers which beach then may enter and come out ? Why don't you educate them not to put divers and snorklers in danger at p.ex. Pink Beach ? Pink Beach Iwhich is a public beach !) is off limit for kite surfers, or don't you know or care ?????

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #149) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 3:23 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I will no doubt regret getting involved here (again), but...

Jeroen, what do you suggest snorkelers do? Or kids swimming in the shallows? Divers are not the only ones who have had close calls.

There are ways to work this out, and I am not at all suggesting that kiting be banned, but blaming the divers for being at risk is not productive, nor is ignoring the rest of us. There is in fact a problem here that needs to be addressed.

Peace

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #28) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 5:49 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I'm just getting sick of people talking about an issue without comming to the beach and have a closer look at the issue....when they have done that, they will see that there is no problem at all....about the attitude....sorry, I'm not even gonna go into that. I'm gonna quit lookin' at this forum now. Good luck complaning about kitesurfing without having enough knowledge of it!
About me teaching others about this matter....I'm the only kiter who goes to the divers and tells them what to do and wishing them a safe dive....so please please please quit posting stupid things...

"The same reason we are banned from Lac" sorry...who posted this...well...You know what I wanna say about this post.... just get informed well and then post your post!

I'm outa here now....have fun!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Simon (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #8) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 5:56 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

First let me say that the several times I have visited Bonaire I loved it. I and two of my family got our C-Cards through Toucan. I have considered Bonaire for the "Big Family Trip" twice and gone elsewhere because of this level of hysteria about kiteboarding (one of our passions). We used to be bigger into windsurfing and have dropped quite a few bucks at Jibe City and Windsurf Place on past trips...we (actually the kids) have moved on to Kiteboarding. When we were all novices we sat for several hours and watched Sky and some others amaze us at Atlantis...before the bus days. We were not good enough at that time to risk the offshore winds....but we went home stoked. Can't wait to get good enough for Bonaire...diving, kiteboarding, a little windsurfing for the retro touch, flamingos, donkeys, good food, laid back atmosphere.....all good. NO NOT ALL GOOD. I'm gonna kill or be killed by a kite! Not hurt, not freaked, but killed! PLEEESE.

Google...death by kiteboard and see what you get. Kiters drown, get rescued after taking stupid risks, make a potentially dangerous nuisense of themselves when they are rude and selfish, need an inordinately large space to operate safely (particularly as beginners) and must adhere to reasonable restrictions and regulations in crowded areas etc.

The beach where I live in South Carolina has 30+ kites, 10 or so windsurfers, 100's of beach goers etc on a perfect summer day. There are written regulations stipulating zones of operation, strong peer pressure among the kite community to keep it right, a willingness to share and "southern hospitality" that understands"fun is good". Check out Isle of Palms or Sullivan's Island Kiteboarding and join us for some serious air or a 6 mile downwinder....

This situation has gone on too long and needs some significantly cooler heads to prevail or everyone loses. I'll book my next trip when the storm blows over.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #29) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 5:57 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Oh by the way, Pink beach is certainly not off limit for kiteboarders, get informed here....The only place where kiteboarding is banned, is Lac Bay. Every other place on Bonaire you can windsurf/kitesurf. And yes, I'll watch the divers if I'm there, no worries!
And Alex, I'm not blaming the divers or anybody else, I'm just asking if they just can use their sausage so there is no problem at all!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #39) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 6:02 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Same old, same old. You people are unbelievable; who the hell wants to dive in Lac Bay anyway. I cant understand the anti kiter attitude that some of you have. I cant speak for all the kiters but I'm 43 years old and have a fine attitude, I've never had a problem with anybody on the beach. You are all full of it. Any reasonable person can see that Bonaire and the the Bonarians could gain from providing a safe place to kite. What could possibly be wrong with alowing kiters into Lac after 3:00 on probationary basis. Also no kiter should ever be within two kite lines of the shore. Lac is so easy, its shallow and getting launched out at the dock is a no brainer. Give me a break you people, start thinking about how to share, text removed by moderators due to name calling

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4401) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 7:34 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, I'm sure you are a real nice person and that your attitude is wonderful. But the issue is not the sharing part we (let me rephrase that, I) am worried about, I've stated it here before and I'll state is again, Kiting and snorkeling, swimming and diving can be done at the same location, BUT we all have to take our responsibilities. I'll descend in 3 feet of water and I'll ascend in 3 feet of water (that's pretty close to the shore on most sites). I really don't like ascending and the first thing that I'll see when I put my head above the water is an incoming kite. If the kiters (that I love to watch, with their high jumps, spinning and so on) could stay further away from the shore, we could all enjoy the waters of Bonaire. And when leaving the shore-line or getting back to it, please do as all boaters have to do by regulation, and reduce your speed in the shallows.

Just my 2 cents.

Martin

P.S. (and I'm writing this as one of the moderators) I find it difficult to believe that your sense of a good attitude is the same of a lot of people on this board, we don't mind a good discussion, but we do mind name calling. I would like to ask you to refrain from that. If you are in a discussion, please leave your "opponents" in their value, and treat them the same as you want to be treated.

Safe kiting and safe diving, let's share the waters in a safe way, like in a lot of other places on the world...

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #150) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 8:24 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Jeroen,

I will gladly give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't blaming the divers, but you didn't answer my question :-), which was asked with all sincerity. I have had a close encounter with a kiter, and witnessed several others between kiters and snorkelers. A sausage won't help me.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #504) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 8:43 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

The Bonaire kitesurf site states safety is 15m from the beach ... where ever I looked (FKAS, Cabarete, Belgium) the safety is go out and stay out and keep at least 100m from beach and bystanders ! Perhaps it is time that the Bonaire kitesurfers adjust their standards of safety and the problems with snorklers and divers and beachgoers will be rather less numerous ...
http://www.kiteboarding.be/frameset2.htm

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #40) on Friday, October 6, 2006 - 9:12 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Guys, its not a big deal, kiting is not as dangerous as as the hysteria suggest; theres so much room at Lac, go upwind, stay upwind, create a boundary, whatever, share the water. The authorties can always rescind any condition. Somebody come up with a sensible solution. Do not be scared we (kiters) come in peace...

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Reem (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2505) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 2:41 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen,

You have almost said the magic words: "kiters must kite responsibly". They didn't follow your dictum at Lac and have been banned there for that good reason.

They don't act responsibly on the west side and that is the problem there. The sensible solution will begin to form when leaders among the kiters admit that some of you are not acting responsibly, and you effectively work on your own kind rather than spending your time talking at divers. I have heard of no diver who has endangered a kiter, in Lac or on the west side. "Kiters, heal thyselves"!!!

But, then, are we talking to the wind????

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1789) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 5:50 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

I must add this - if the kiters can't even control themselves on an internet forum what hope have we of them doing the same on the water?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #41) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 8:27 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

What are you guys talking about? What kiters are you referring? The simple fact is kiters, windsurfers and divers can all manage a sensible solution, the only problems are:

1. create a zone with marked boudaries

2. Launch and land kites a respectable 100m from shore min.

3. limits, how many kiters can lac support?

4. Controls, maybe kiters should be required to register and sail only out of one of the vendor shops. This would keep people from just showing up and sailing without any accountability. The vendors should get a nominal fee for having to supervise, employees should assist in launch and landing. Personally I would pay a reasonable fee for this access and support; the vendors could establish rules with accountability enforced with the power to rescind the "Privilidge" kiting is not a right, it should come with the possibility of consequence.

The bottom line is that kiting is not allowed because if Lac was open to kiters it would become a great destination, people would just pack there kites and go. No doubt that would upset the current economic condition that currently exists, vendors must be considered, there ability to manage the situation is critical, and they need to be well compensated for the troubles. Locals and regulars should be allowed some special conditional access, vacationers should have to anti-up. One of the things that is so upsetting is that the local kids and others are not able to kite in a safe place, the current situation is really sad, if I lived there I would terribly upset. There is no environmental or safety issue that can not be worked out.

lastly, its tragic but predictable in that in the early days of kiting things where a little different, people didnt have decent instruction and it was a trial and error kind of thing. Things are very different now, kites are safer, kiters are better, and windurfers (at least the ones I know) have all learned that kiters are not any different then them. We are all just stoked to be here\there, we are all brothers of the wind and water. Why not try? why not be tolerant, why not be optimistic, and why havnt you all tried kiting? Its a fantastic sport that is easy and accessible to all. Personally, I went to Bonaire on my Honeymoon 6 years ago, I now have two children that I want to see Bonaire, i want them to learn how to windsurf and then maybe kite, I want to be there with family, I want to support the vendors, I want responsible solution that considers environmental and safety concerns, I want a civil discussion about how to make it work......

If you have nothing other then "NO" to add to the discussion you are part of the problem, and thats your right, I just cant continue to placate to your fear, its irrational and unwarranted.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2944) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 9:24 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, some people are talking about kiters who almost ran them over as they exited the water. Denying that these events have occurred, and attacking the people who have reported them, will only prejudice divers against your sport.

It took a long while for Bonaire to become the diving destination it has, and I see no reason why kiting should get an express pass to run roughshod over the rights of scuba divers who were there first. If there were truly no problem as you believe, we would not be discussing this now. Denial is the first stage...

"If you have nothing other then "NO" to add to the discussion you are part of the problem, and thats your right, I just cant continue to placate to your fear, its irrational and unwarranted."

That sort of statement does not engender a civil discussion. In fact, you seem to stay in attack mode no matter what. If you would like to help your cause, I suggest you try to dispense information instead of your unfounded opinions. For instance, how far is "two kite lines" in real life?

The real bottom line is that this is a forum composed mostly of divers and snorklers, and though we have given the wind people their own area on BT, they seldom use that area, and when they do, they use that area to attack non windsurfers with childish name calling. Such behavior reinforces a general feeling that kiters have no respect for other people who have been diving and snorkeling on Bonaire for many years. The kiters who don't see a problem don't see the divers they almost run over either.
Now let's have a civil discussion, instead of acting like we learned to argue from watching FOX "news".

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #30) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 10:12 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Can anybody tell me how I can stop getting emails from this forum??? I don't want to participate any longer. When people want to chat, come to the beach, in stat of attacking and insulting 'kiters'. People don't know what they talk about here.
The 'rule' of we where here first is stupid! That's for kids!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1792) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 10:40 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

If you no longer wish to participate on the forum email the moderators and ask them to delete your account - Here is the address moderators@BonaireTalk.com

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #31) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 10:48 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Thanx Brian

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1795) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 10:58 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hey Jeroen by the way we love your profile pic with the dogs.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #505) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 11:08 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Jeroen, you certainly don't like to answer questions .... neither from Alex nor from me.
What about the 100m safety distance which is normal in the rest of the world for kitesurfers ? Why is that not on YOUR web site ? You only have 15m on your web site. But 100m (minmum as stated in the FKAS rules! or the Belgium rules etc....) would make all the difference for divers, snorklers and beach goers - and it puts the shallows at Pink Beach off limit ! Even Stephen mentioned the 100m minimum in his last post !

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #32) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 11:46 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Sorry Birgitte.
Í don't have a website....I'm just living on this beautiful island and having fun kiting/diving/snorkling. I am not making money kiting! That is somebody else.
100m safety is out of the question. We have offshore winds where we kite now. To swim back that 100m is a big problem. If the wind was sideshore here, it was not a problem at all...
To have a nice day kiting you need flat water....asking to go further out of the coast is not safe and as in fun the same as asking divers to go diving in brown water where you cannot see anything.
Still I don't see the problem why people don't use a sausage while diving.
A last thing....The people that kite on Pink beach are locals, who know what they are doing....They also know how to share the water with other people without causing problems.
Come and have a little chat at the beach so we can explain a bit more about kitesurfing. I'm sure you will see it a different way.
And Alex, you mention a close encounter with kiters...but what's a close encounter...come to the beach and I'll explain that everything downwind of you can never hit you if you're upwind of the kiters. This is exactly what I mean by knowledge of the sport....a sausage and knowledge is the solution! I'm a diver too...why don't you try kiting so you'll see what the (not-)problem is....

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Johnson (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #229) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 2:23 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I am old enough to remember the ski area progression (no ski brakes allowed, no jumping, no short skis allowed, no snow boards allowed, etc.) What made those changes happen was economics -- there were too many snowboarders wanting to buy a lift ticket for most ski areas to ignore.

In that regard, I have a bit of natural sympathy for the kiters -- they are trying to have the same as anyone else. A safe and fun place to practice their sport. I respect that. Just as I respect Bonaire's right to allow or limit such activities.

That said, the posts on this board have made me rethink that view. I don't think diving (or snorkel or swim) can safely take place near sail or kite boarders. I am convinced by several of the comments here that at least some don't see the need for distance between the sports.

A collision could easily result in a severe head injury, a severe neck injury or death. Why can't ALL boarders see that? Incidents have either been dismissed, trivialized or called made up And I could pull at least five quotes from this thread alone).

Seb said it best, "...some people are talking about kiters who almost ran them over as they exited the water. Denying that these events have occurred, and attacking the people who have reported them, will only prejudice divers against your sport."

I am now in that category.

Jeron: I have said hi to to kiters in the past and agree they are a friendly group in person.

I agree, we were here first is not always the best rationale. That said, it is used in land use all of the time. In addition, the island tourism is built around divers/snorkelers -- and shore diving in particular. There is also a healthy tourism center around windsurf at Lac Bay. More people probably shore dive the Hilma Hooker in one day than kite Bonaire in one week.

So when an existing use is long standing, has more particpants and is an economic driver it will probably win (and most public policy experts would likely tend to agree)

Finally, I cannot agree that a sausage and knowledge are a complete solution. Based on other comments here, I am convinced that separation is the only thing that will work. If it is impractical to share Lac and it is impractical to prohibit kiting within 100m of shore (or other people), then I see no choice but a separate area or a blanket prohibition. That is for Bonaire (not me) to decide.

PS: As I understand it, the reason dive floats are not commonly used here is that boats are not allowed to travel inside the reef except when going directly to/from shore. And then they are expected to go very slow and watch for divers. And then it would be rare for them to be in less than 4 FSW (when I usually surface). And you can hear boats...

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #33) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 6:04 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hi David,
Atlantis is gonna be the kitespot where people will go if they wanna learn or kite because they are not that good at the sport yet. I think I don't bring anybody in danger by kiting anywhere on Bonaire. There are 2 or 3 kiters (who really know what they are doing) on bonaire that kite on pinkbeach or near the coast there...please let them have the fun of living, diving and kiting on bonaire. So no forbidden area's for kiting....it's really not such a big deal as is written in this forum! Thats what I ment by knowing both sports....kiting and diving. I'm sure people wouldn't be scared if they knew more about the beautiful kitesport....
Let's not make Bonaire the same as a crowded beach near Amsterdam or somewhere else....

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #506) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 6:22 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

The rest of the world (not only the people on BT) seems to think different. Otherwise why has the rest of the world a safty distance from shore and bystanders of a minimum of a 100m ????
Ever been to Cabarete ???? Just beginners may kite in the kite bay, all the others have to go outside the reef ... and there is a often changing wind and there are waves ... seems on Bonaire that is too difficult for kitesurfers, which means even more that the safty distance should be applied ! Have you ever read the safety rules of the FKAS or of one of the others ? Seems not ....

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2945) on Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 9:50 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Brigitte, it certainly seems as if the kiteboarders followed their own rules as laid down by kiteboarding groups there would be no problem. Do these people need to be certified to kite? I think it is high time the government regulated it and enforced international rules.

Below excerpted from the Florida Kitesurfing Association. The IKO has the same regulations.

2. KEEP IT LOW & GO! … to try to avoid lofting or involuntary lifting. In general, DO NOT bring your kite much above 10 to 20 feet (3 to 6 m) from the ground and NEVER to the vertical, within 300 ft. (100 m) of shore or any hard object at most launch areas . Never launch, fly or land upwind and close to the shore or hard objects or stand on the beach for extended with your kite in the air. This careless practice has killed and maimed riders. This practice MAY reduce the chance of lofting but may also promote dragging and serious injury in gusty/strong wind conditions. So, if you are dragged be ready to totally depower instantly using your kite leash and ideally before the dragging starts in the first place. HAZARD AVOIDANCE IS THE KEY along with rapid preemptive, rehearsed actions. Do not fly your kite near vertical or sloped surfaces that can cause uplift and sudden dragging/lofting (walls, buildings, hills, tree lines, etc,). Avoid thermal generating areas as sudden thermal lofting can occur. Launch in the appropriate part of the wind window to avoid “hot” or over-powered downwind launches. Make sure that there are no bystanders within your downwind buffer zone or close by in general.

3. GET OFFSHORE AND STAY THERE. Go offshore at least 300 ft. (100 M) WITHOUT DELAY after launch. Stay beyond 300 ft. until time to come in. If there are substantial waves where you need to put on your board consider body dragging outside the breaker zone first. The fun is offshore, danger to the rider & bystanders is near shore where most of the hard stuff is located.

4. YIELD THE RIGHT OF WAY. Yield the right of way to all others in the water. Riders must yield to others when jumping, to anyone on your right hand side and to launching riders. When in doubt, STOP. Kiteboarders should not jump within a buffer zone of at least two hundred feet (60 m) of others and objects that are downwind. Always be aware of the position of your lines relative to others, line cuts can be severe and tangled lines with another kite, deadly.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #42) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 8:29 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Noresponse, you are a condencending and completely rude. The fact that you think rights to anything is beyond me. To suggest you first dibs because you have (divers) been there first is a selfish and arrogant position. I begin to tolerate that, the only thing that prevents me from loosing all decorum is the respect for others on BT. So in fairness to them I ask you to crawl back under the rock you came from.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #43) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 8:55 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

those suggestions transcribed by Rick Iossi. Are relevent only in respect to onshore conditions. The simple fact is the condition on Bonaire is the opposit, those suggestions are not applicable; however they could be applied to a situation such as Lac Bay. The fact that kitesurfers have been banished from Lac or any other decent locations is why they are at Atlantis or Pink Beach. As it exists now kitesurfers have no other alternative, it is what it is. If divers think they have more rights, rights that trump all others thats pathetic. It sounds to me that the divers could help serve themselves while at the same time helping kiters. If somebody, especially from the diver constituancy was to work to get get us access at Lac there problems would be solved. I have made many consructive suggestions that take into account the many conditions at Lac. The bottom line is kitesurfing should be integrated into Bonaire immediately, the opportunities are tremendous. Before somebody argues that a kiters contribution doesnt mean anything, or that the economics are marginal let me suggest its not just the kiters. In my case, as in many, I kite, my wife windsurfs, my children will likely windsurf first. People think that kiters are from another planet, believe me, I'm totally integrated into the water thing, not a noob from the periphery.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1740) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 9:18 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Are you a complete idiot?? It isn't the divers endangering kiters lives - and until you accept that you kiters have some responsibility your rantings are nothing but that, rantings.

We have had divers post here who were in 3 feet of water, and had to duck back down because of a kiter coming right at them. That's NOT the diver's fault and NOT something that the diver should need to take action about avoiding. That's a kiter endangering lives recklessly.

And who the heck is "Noresponse"?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4402) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 9:32 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, just being curious: What part of SAFETY are you missing?

I've been almost hit when surfacing in 3 feet of water, real close to the shore, and I know it has happened to more people. Why is it necessary to kite within 30 feet from the shore line? You guys have a stand-by boat on scene, so PLEASE use the safety distances as used all over the world.

Divers are asked to do what divers all around the world are doing (e.g. using a safety sausage), but when we ask kiters to do the same, we get a reply it's impossible to do so on Bonaire. Could you please clarify why all divers should use safety measures widely used around the world and kiters can set their own rules? (this is not for causing a fight, just me being curious)

I'm sure kiting can be a good thing to the economical situation of Bonaire, but the bottom line remains the fact that safety should be a matter of all, not just everybody but the kiters.

And before you tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, I'll tell you something about my background. I've been a life guard for 10 years on crowded beaches here in Holland, and I have seen what fast moving vessels can do to people (like a kid being strangled by a rope behind a fast moving powerboat in a swimming area), and it sure is not a pretty sight. I don't want to ban Kiting, I just think kiting, like all other water sports on Bonaire, should be regulated and the regulations should be enforced. It's only to keep Bonaire a safe and enjoyable place for all people.

Martin

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4403) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 9:37 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Susan, I think Stephen got a private message in his mailbox. The return address of those messages is noresponse@bonairetalk.com, that might have been why he is referring to noresponse.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #508) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 10:06 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

so the kite surfers need different wind ... so why not going to Baby Beach ? No divers there, no windsurfers there and only very very rarely a wave surfer or beach goer ....

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #34) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 9:10 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Birgit, why don't you go diving there?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #35) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 9:12 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Please Birgit, just be reasonalbe....why should the kiters have to move somewhere else? There are 400 divingspots to go diving, there is one place on Bonaire's westcoast where you can put your kite on the BEACH whithout getting this expensive thing damaged....why not go diving somewhere else if you are scared for the kiters....
Just come and have a close look to see that there is no problem at all if divers use a sausage.....this is gonna be my last attempt....

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #36) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 9:13 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

If you just knew enough about this sport, you would not be scared diving with kiters above you!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #510) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 9:37 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Jeroen, you were the one complaining about the wrong wind by Atlantis --- other side of the island the wind than should be right, no ??? So what is wrong with Baby Beach ????
And I am not a diver, so I am not scared for myself - I am just disgusted by the absolute disregard of safety rules by some of the kiters - and you seem to be one of them, otherwise what reason to defend that kind of behaviour ???!!!!
I just see no reason why every other person exercising a certain sport has to follow the rules of the rest of the world, so why do the kiters of Bonaire do not follow the rules of the kiter community of the rest of the world ?????????? And I have rather enough of all the complains I hear from my guests who come back from the south side, not even Atlantis , with one or another horror story !!!!!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #37) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 10:41 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Please Birgit...I kite at babybeach...no problem. But nobody comes with me....waves/onshore winds/rocks/stones...do I need to say more?
If you have guests who are complaining and telling horrorstories, please tell them to have a nice vacation on another Island...these people do not belong on bonaire. There will always be people who complain about everything. Here people can live with eachother and enjoy other peoples hobby's and take care for eachother....I'd be the last person on this island who tries to give other people a hard time practising their hobby by making problems and therefore rules....
Everybody who complains about kitesurfing at Atlantis, is just not good enough informed about this sport.
If I want to go diving on a certain place and I saw something I'd be scared of, I would just go dive somewhere else or go to the people who practise the aktivity to ask if it is a risk to go diving there. Maybe they have some good advise for me....
My advise for all divers who still want to have a safe dive at atlantis.....well I believe I posted it a long time ago...and again and again.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #511) on Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 11:09 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Jeroen, in an earlier posting you complained about offshore winds at Atlantis, now the onshore winds of Baby Beach are no good ....
But what I really wonder about: are you that egoistic and stupid as your postings suggest or are you playing a game ?????
Have you ever read the international safetey rules of your beloved sport ??? Seb has nicely posted a few , could you understand those or is that to difficult for you ?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4408) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 1:10 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Jeroen, somehow it seems that the people defending kiting on Bonaire are forgetting to answer one important question: "Why don't you follow the safety procedures set in the rest of the world and why don't you obey the same rules all boaters have to follow (like no sailing in the shallows and going fast is only allowed in the blue)?"

Could you please answer that for me? And like I've said before, I've got no intention to have kiting forbidden, I just want to be able to use the same location in a SAFE way.

Martin

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2950) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 7:36 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Well if there is only one place to go kiting on Bonaire, maybe you are trying to kite on the wrong island? If kiters on Bonaire need special, more dangerous rules for their sport that contradict the rules in use everywhere else in the world, maybe the real problem is kiters need to go to another island more suited to their sport.


Personally, I'd like to encourage all divers to petition the BMP to adopt and enforce the kiting rules the rest of the world uses. Stamp out outlaw kiters!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Johnson (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #231) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 8:02 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen:
I wish you luck on your efforts to safely share the waters of Lac. Is sharing the water safely with windsurfers doable? I have no idea!

I am not skilled enough in either kiting or windsurfing to comment. That is a debate for those who are skilled in at least one of those sports to engage in.

In terms of economic impact of kiters: I did not mean to imply that there were not many kiters in the world. And I know I did not imply that they were low budget travellers. What I did mean to say was this: At least for now, people who come to Bonaire to dive, snorkel and windsurf appear to to be the core of the economy.

And Bonaire has to compete with a bevy of destinations for any tourists. Cozumel (much easier to get to from the USA), Caymans, South Pacific, etc., etc. At the moment, Bonaire offers something fairly rare: abundant and safe shore diving with warm water and decent viz.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #44) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 8:32 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Its one beach, gimmee a break! What is so difficult with having to share. Use common sense, a sausage, or whatever else works. The whole safety thing is blown out of proportion. All activities worth doing come with inherent risk. Kitesurfing, Diving, Windsurfing, hiking, driving, sex, drugs, alcohol. There are no gaurantees in this world. Dont use your fear as an obstatcle, its a slippery slope to doing nothing but being a couch potatoe. Its pretty obvious that many BT'ers have this idea that they own the island and that their will is more important then anyone elses. As an outsider I think many of you are suffering from a disease called meism, me, me, me me. Jeroen is forced into what is arguably a dangerous and ridiculous place to have to kite, having have been forced there many of you are going a step further and condeming him, you are indifferent to the kiters situation, many of you seem to think that condeming kiting is somehow a strategy. This condition is frustrating and reflects a completely arrogant position. Bridgette, Seb and the rest of you need to begin to consider solutions that are not so stupid. Its pretty obvious that Bonaire Talk, is more like Bonaire sqwalk. Isnt there anyone out there that has the power, good judgement, and a sense of fair play? Have kiters condemned Divers? dont you think that a good rub can go both ways; for instance, divers use tons of gas, either driving around the island looking for yellow stones or using boats. The generators required for air compression use petrol or some other fossil fuel. All the weight being transported around is using fuel, many of you go down and poke and disturb an area you have no buisness in, ask a fish, if he wants you there. Diving may be fun and exciting but is does more damage to the island then a kiter ever could. There are many hotels, motels, restaurants, tour boats etc that directly contradict many of your mantras. Kiters use only the wind, any talk about the silly but necassary boat that the kiters have to retrieve errant kiters is minimal compared to the petrol consuming diver contingent. My point is simply stones are easy to throw, be careful where you hurl your venom. I will simply say what I have been saying for years! Lac Bay is the place for kiters, and windsurfers. It doesnt need to be more complicated then that. Vendor supervised, a mark zone, (if a kiter cant manage to stay there for whatever reason they would be required to put the kite down, self retrieve and do the walk of shame, simple really, just as any other beach with a similiar situation) Each vendor should be able to host a number of kiters, the number to be determined, locals need only to pass a test of competancy, and then to assist the vendors in policing the situation. Of course somebody is going to somehow criticise me, it will probably have nothing to do with working out a tolerable solution for all, whatever, go ahead, my expectation is that none of you have the will or vision to respect kiters and use your self imposed command of the world in ways that are fair. Many of you should be ashamed.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Johnson (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #232) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 8:38 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Jeroen:

I appreciate the fact that you are just trying to have fun with a sport that is your passion. I appreciate that. That said, I think a few of your comments go, perhaps, a bit far.

First, I am not sure if any hotel operator (i.e., Brigitte) will typically tell guests who complain about near misses to, "have a nice vacation on another Island...these people do not belong on bonaire." Jeroen -- That was your suggestion.

What if their complaints are valid (as both she and I think they are)? I think this is what concerns me the most -- the idea that everyone who has had some sort of near miss MUST be dismissed as either fabricating or exaggerating the event

Second, there are not 400 dive sites and only one site for kiteboarding. You have indicated Atlantis and Baby Beach. When someone mentioned that Pink Beach was off limits, you noted that all of the west coast was OK. And to leave those off PB alone as they are very skilled. (Personally, I would be OK having Atlantis (the lovely dive site site that it is) be a kite zone if that allowed other areas to either be kite free (or to have the kiting take place 100m off shore).

And I know there are not 400 dive sites.

Finally, I have come to understand that separation must be a requirement for snorkel/divers and kiters. As a diver, I am 100% responsible for my own safety. That means identifying any risks and developing a risk mitigation plan or aborting the dive. If there are kiters or windsurfers using the shallow areas, I will call off the dive. Here is why.

If I am in 10 plus feet of water, the average boat poses no risk to me. My time of greatest exposure is in the shallows -- somewhere that boats tend to avoid. I can also hear boats. It is NEVER ok for me to assume that overhead traffic will avoid me. Dive flags on floats can be missed by boaters depnding on conditions, driver distractions, etc. (and I know of at least one instance where uneducated jet skiers took them as bouys to do tricks around).

In the USA, when I cross a street at a crosswalk, I assume other cars will stop for me. The law requires them to do that (failure to do is a big ticket). I still watch and listen for cars because I don't want my safety to be 100% dependant on someone else. The consequences of an accident (broken bones, death, head injury, etc. are just too serious). And, like the pedestrian, it will be the diver who gets the worst of any wreck.

As a diver, I can't always see a collision risk coming at me. That risk increases to an unacceptable level if I am in three feet of water, cannot see the risk when submerged and cannot hear the risk. And it is fast moving. Does that make me scared of kite boarding? Maybe. I prefer to think of it as a rational take on the risks.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #45) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 8:45 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

David, you seem to have a cool head, one of very few that may represent BT. The simple fact is kiteurfing has not had the opportunity to show its possibilities. I am one of those core components that you spoke of, On my visit to Bonaire I was there to windsurf and enjoy the island, I now kitsurf and am now no longer considered part of the core, why? Is it peoples idea we are all in our twentys and have no money, family, or other interests? Isnt it reasonable to consider kiters would be a great part of the mix? Many familys who windsurf have a member or two that kite, no doubt in the majority its the Dad, either way, Dad, Mom, kids whatever, its not only kiters looking elswhere to vacation its the whole family having to.

Seb, what can I say, I wish you had some courage and brains, you have demonstrated your complete ineptitude to consider others, your lack of creativity and sense of fair play is disturbing.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Johnson (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #233) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 8:57 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen:

To be clear, I have neither condemned kiting as a sport nor kiters as a group. I have made specific comments in response to what others have said. I have also tried to suggest a solution. My point with your proposal is simple: I am not an expert on kiters and w/s sharing the bay. Why not talk to those in that sport and who use Lac (mostly not people on this board although there are several)?

Side note: I agree that tourism is not a 100% clean industry. There are lots of fossil fuels consumed. But that is probably true of kiting tourism as well? "Kiters use only the wind" That is true while you are there -- but you consumed fossil fuels flying to Bonaire. Generators for the power at the hotel. Gas to drive to the launch site, etc.

And I agree that not all divers dive in a 100% responsible manner. I try to educate those that I see damaging or harassing.

To the extent that fish don't want divers in any area (one exception I know of for sure is Tarpon at night), I expect that they would also not like to see fisherman, boats, kiters, etc.

Well, time to go diving!!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #46) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 9:08 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Well said David, I too am out the door to go kiting. Its windy here on Cape Cod, my kiting and windsurfing buddies are gonna hit the water, I welcome all divers, and fishermen also. Have a good day everyone!

Seb, erghhh I even hope you have a safe and healthy day....

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2952) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 9:17 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, I suspect your parents were way too indulgent. If you want to change the world, the way to do it is not by whining for someone to change it for you. True argument does not involve ad hominem attacks; it involves reasoning, an ability you seem to lack. Your position is indefensible, so you resort to calumny.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #38) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 9:19 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Is this bonaire Stalk? Can anybody help me stop getting emailmessages when somebody post something on this frustrating forum?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #39) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 9:21 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

And Birgit, maybe better that you just come to the beach and have a closer look....your attitude is the 'attacking' way now, so I'm out of here. I'm the latest person who is selfish. Too bad you don't know me.....

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Johnson (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #234) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 9:49 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Jeroen:

You need to turn off email notification if you don't want to get the emails. From the main BT menu, select user profile (icon is of a head speaking). It will ask you to log in. Do so.

Next comes up the profile editor screen. Click email notification. Make sure "Replies to my posts" is unchecked. Click "Save Profile Changes"

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeroen Roevros (BonaireTalker - Post #40) on Monday, October 9, 2006 - 10:29 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Thnx but it does not work...maybe somethings wrong here...I'll figure out...

I got a email from somebody...tnx:

i really feel bad for you kiters. i'm a diver, i moved to bonaire for the
diving, but i have no problem with kiters. if there's a dive site with lots of
kiters, i just drive down to the next one & get in. not a big deal. eventually
i want to try kiting - it looks like loads of fun. don't let the idiots here on
Bonaire talk get to you. they are stuck in their ways and there's no reasoning
with them. by the way, i love the picture of you with the dogs - it's great!

take care & maybe i'll see you around the island sometime.


Tnx for your email

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #47) on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 10:21 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

"Stephen, I suspect your parents were way too indulgent. If you want to
change the world, the way to do it is not by whining for someone to
change it for you. True argument does not involve ad hominem attacks;
it involves reasoning, an ability you seem to lack. Your position is
indefensible, so you resort to calumny."

Once again another BT'er shows us that being articulate isnt the same thing as having a brain...

I have tried all means to explore this issue, soft sell, hard sell, whatever, nothing works. There have been a few peple here who have shown an open mind and a desire to work out an equitable solution, but the rest of you are hard core NIMBY's Whoever is responsible for the above quote I ask you, have you read the entire thread? are you sure you have the right person? What is your problem? Unless you can suggest a solution instead of attacking me I suggest you look hard in the mirror, your apparently confused as I think you are over indulgent, indefensible. What part of my argument is indefensible?



(Message edited by steve_t on October 10, 2006)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #48) on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 4:45 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Bridgette, Seb and Martin, you folks are so uptight. There are no "International rules" simply suggestions. Every kiter must take into account the location, weather etc. Bridgette do us a favor and tell us what resort you work for, many kiters and some windsurfers may not want to intrude on your WORLD. I know I would prefer to avoid you.

Seb, you are particuly annoying, just thought you should know... "

Seb said- read it in that irratating whiny voice...classic.

"Well if there is only one place to go kiting on Bonaire, maybe you are trying to kite on the wrong island? If kiters on Bonaire need special, more dangerous rules for their sport that contradict the rules in use everywhere else in the world, maybe the real problem is kiters need to go to another island more suited to their sport.


Personally, I'd like to encourage all divers to petition the BMP to adopt and enforce the kiting rules the rest of the world uses. Stamp out outlaw kiters!"

Class act you are.

Jeroen, I figure if I irratate these people enough I'll just get banned, should work for you, then again it hasnt worked for me, yet.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4411) on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 5:45 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, could you please explain why you think I'm uptight when I'm worried about safety?

I still don't have an answer to my questions; I only seem to read replies that all divers are trying to get the kiters of island. I cannot recall to have insinuated anything like that in one of my postings.

And we don't ban people who have a different opinion than we have, heck; I like a good discussion as long as there is a reply to questions and / or statements made by your "opponents". I feel like I could as well be talking to a brick wall instead of trying to get a reasonable reply from you about one thing you say you are concerned about, and that is safety.

I even dare to question your willingness to read what others have to say. If you would read the complete name of Brigitte, do you actually believe Coco Palms Garden is her maiden name?? I think it might be a small referral to the name of her resort. Checking her profile makes me sure it is the name of her resort.

Most people on BT are not trying to ban Kiting, they just want to make it safe for all (he, did I say that before in this discussion??) and if you want to be taken seriously, at least try to give the impression you want the same thing.

As long as you keep (and I'm using your words here) "irritating those people", you might get reactions you don't want to receive.

And for me?? I know I'll be enjoying the kiters again in a couple of weeks, but I know that I'll be doing so from the shore. The reason I'm not going to dive Magrate Bay or Vista Blue (and those are not directly next to Atlantis), is simple, I don't want to risk serious injuries by people who are to selfish and ignorant to keep common sense and normal safety procedures in mind. And yes I do know there are a lot of kiters who DO care about others; it's a shame that a small minority can spoil the good name of the majority.

Martin

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4412) on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 5:52 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Oh, Stephen, I did not want to get ugly here. It seems you don't like arguments from other people ( I'm talking about this tread).

If we could have an open discussion (with arguments and answers pro and con), we might get a good solution.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2954) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:11 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, at least you admit, finally, you are just here to annoy people.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1843) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:17 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Martin

I get an error message from your link on the 5:52 post

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4413) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:44 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Brian, the tread I was pointing to was under local items, but we (the moderators) decided to move it to the kiting, windsurfing and sailing tread. I think you did manage to find it there... :-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1850) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:46 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

I think I have a recollection of it.

 


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