By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #50) on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 5:23 pm: |
Its been a year since I inquired about the status of kiteboarding at lac bay. Its been rough going. I just thought that people here should now that the few detractors are still ever present. I just thought some of you who dont follow the thread "kiteboarding on Bonaire" may want to take a look. Some of you may want to know what others have been saying, personally I'd like to think they dont speak for everyone. This situation may be affecting many of you directly or indirectly. The basic jist is simple, as a windsurfer and kiter I know all to well the status of the industry, kiting is gaining huge support throughout the world while windsurfing is struggling; many people who would otherwise come to Bonaire to do it all; such as, dive, snorkel, windsurf and kite are having to make plans at other destinations because of the situation. If you are dependent on tourism you may want to know that kiters are not solely kiters, we are dads, moms, sons, daughters, divers, and windsurfers. Many on the thread have objected to kiting for what ever reason, but the result is the same, as a result of the current situation you are loosing revenue, friends and some may be seeing less of there families. The thread is long and sometimes discouraging as it has really become very ugly. Again I just thought some of you may want to know what others have had to say, after all their voices have deterred any reasonable dialogue on what I would think could be a win win for all.
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By Cynde (Moderator) (Moderator - Post #336) on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 6:08 pm: |
Stephen, I've deleted your duplicate thread in the Support Bonaire topic area as it didn't belong there, and it's also against Bonaire Talk policy (which is about to change in the next couple of days). You can also read it here - spamming threads:
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1828) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 3:55 am: |
If Kiters cannot police themselves and continue to put divers at risk by speeding in the shallows and kiting away from Kite Beach then regulations are needed and should be policed.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #51) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 7:38 am: |
Brian, i asked Bridgette to substatiate those claims, she did not. I dont believe it happened and if so would be interested in the circumstances so that it could be avoided in the future. Brian, please consider that there are subjective forces working here, I'm not sure youve taken into consideration the many faceted issues such as the status quo, vendors at Lac, and the bias surrounding the current situation. I'm not saying that kiteboarding isnt potentially dangerous, furthermore its worth mentioning that windsurfing, diving, and snorkeling come with inherent risk. Currently the location that kiters are forced to go is dangerous for them. Would you for feel any better if the headline wrote, kitesurfer dies becuase he/she spent the night on the water because they were blown off shore? The simple truth is kiting has come along way in the last four years, its safer, its more popular, and Bonaire could serve herself by revisiting the situation at Lac Bay. Any amendment to the current condition could be rescinded if it didnt work. Why there is so much negativity sorrounding kiting on Bonaire continues to be a mystery to me.
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1829) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 8:27 am: |
Stephen
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By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2953) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 10:49 am: |
Stephen, how many folks have died kitesurfing in your area over the past year?
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By Cynde (Moderator) (Moderator - Post #337) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 10:51 am: |
Stephen, English is not Brigitte's first language, so I think there is a communication issue in what you are reading from what she was posting. Secondly, Brigitte is a long time BT poster and an island business owner and is very well known for posting facts, not hearsay. She has a "reputation" of integrity here on BT, so what she posts is taken as factual, and in my book she does not need to show me pictures, provide horrid details, names, etc. I'm sure she would if we asked her. Her reputation preceeds her. That's the nice thing about Bonaire Talk. Some people, business owners and community members have proven to be upstanding members of this community and their word is valued and trusted. Sure, no one is perfect, but for the most part, you can pretty much trust what they say to be on the mark, particularly if they live on island. Brigitte is one of these people. I could name a few others.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #52) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:19 am: |
Brian I think you are confused. my argument is to get kiters back into Lac Bay, not at Atlantis. I dont think there is much of an issue with hitting a diver in Lac bay, its waist deep; if there was a problem you would haved bitched about the windsurfers also.
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1846) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:37 am: |
Stephen
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #53) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:42 am: |
Seb, we havnt had any on Cape Cod, yes two people have died in Conneticut. but both situations were anomelies and the circumstances are this:
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By Ann Phelan - www.bonairecaribbean.com (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2417) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:53 am: |
Most of the deaths I am aware of resulted in head injuries sustained when a kiter is catapaulted from the beach to the pavement, something that only happens on onshore conditions (Atlantis is offshore so this could not happen in theory).
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1856) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:54 am: |
Stephen
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #54) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:57 am: |
Brian I have made many suggestions, I will just list a few that would mitigate problems:
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By David Johnson (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #235) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:02 pm: |
Stephen:
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1862) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:16 pm: |
You want to restore Kiting in Lac Bay but this has been banned. Surely the best approach to achieve this would be for Kiters to be recognised as safe, sensible sportsmen who are respected by other users of the waters on Bonaire.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #55) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:17 pm: |
Hi Ann, its been a long time. I agree hours may be a good idea, however I think the whole beach thing should be off limits. The one great asset about Lac is the shallow water, there is no reason why people cant walk out 100 yards or more and launch from a very safe distance with no chance of hitting any obstacle. Also its worth mentioning kites are much safer now. The introduction of the BOW kite which is 100% depowerable is revolutionising the industry, BOW kites have made the sport so much safer to do and to learn, long gone are the days of being catapaulted, check it out.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #56) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:28 pm: |
What can I say, I respect all of your comments. While I may not agree with all of what people say this has been the best interaction relative to the situation so far. I really appreciate the tone and will refrain from my overly defensive and sometimes arrogant behavior.
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By Glen Reem (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2506) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:59 pm: |
Is this the fourteenth or fifteenth time wide bandwidth has been used here with just the same arguments and only a different kiter?
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #57) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 8:16 pm: |
Glen, is that the best contribution you can make? You must have really considered the issue. text removed by moderators
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By Glen Reem (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2507) on Saturday, October 14, 2006 - 2:46 am: |
Ah, a personal attack instead of reasoned response. Oh well.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #58) on Saturday, October 14, 2006 - 7:53 am: |
Glen said
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By Hendrik Wuyts (BonaireTalker - Post #12) on Saturday, October 14, 2006 - 10:07 am: |
There is so much talk I cant takes the time to read all the stories, I just wonder if any of you have ever been on Bonaire?
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By Cynde (Moderator) (Moderator - Post #339) on Saturday, October 14, 2006 - 1:57 pm: |
Hendrik, most of the posters on this thread have been to Bonaire many many times A sparce few, only a couple
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #59) on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 10:05 am: |
Cynde, I'm not sure why you consider my opinions "rants". The only "rants" I have made have been in response to provoked attacks from senseless individuals who have commented on my inquiry in a manner only consistent with invalidation and condensending remarks. I only brought this to BT because I thought there may be some people here that may want to understand the situation and in so bring a renewed interest to the continued debate, I was wrong. Interestingly it seems that a caveat to the issue of kiting at Lac Bay has been that divers object to kiting at Atlantis, I concour with that and thought that somebody, anybody, within the the government or the BT constituancy may see the issue in a manner consistent with fair play and a democratic context, again I was wrong. I still dont understand what is so demonstrable in my comments that would subject me to possible censorship. While I agree some of what I have said has been argumentative it hasnt been personel. I think many here have taken some cheap shots at me and I'm not one to pull punches when somebody takes a swing at me. In the end I think what this comes down to is, have people taken swings at me? I hope people can read through the posts and come to their own conclusions. The fact that nobody with exception of a very few have approached this subject with interest and an open mind suggest to me that BT is likely not the place for a dialogue that means to work out an equitable solution for all. Instead all I have heard is negativity, intolerance, and a continued hiearchital argument from the diver contingent; ironically they're not even involved in the problem at Lac. Infact I'm not really sure how we have come to this, it seems that to a large extent we are on the same page.
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1987) on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 2:02 pm: |
Stephen if you want Kiters back in Lac Bay - stop posting this rubbish and try and start to build a better images of kiters. Is this too difficult for you?
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #60) on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 2:28 pm: |
Brian, you just dont get it. This isnt a popularity contest, its about whats fair. But that hasnt occured to you. Do you Dive at Lac, Do you windsurf at Lac? Why dont you stop attacking me and instead think of a possible solution, make an objective and reasonable comment. You are typical of the critical people I have spoken of; basically useless in respect to a dialogue, if you are trying to provoke me into a response that will get me banned from here you are well on your way, good luck next time...
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #61) on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 2:39 pm: |
Brian, this is what started this, if you would like to comment please do so in the context that it was intended.
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2002) on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 3:16 pm: |
All I can hear is the sound of one hand clapping. Why do you think the other kiters are not posting!!
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #62) on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 4:59 pm: |
Brian, the clapping is just the echo in your head, let it go. If you cant say something objective and on topic just dont say anything.
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2005) on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 6:41 pm: |
Stephen I can honestly say that Bonaire would be a far better place without you. I now realise that you were not clapping.
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By Alex Brown (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #165) on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 9:34 pm: |
Stephen,
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By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2958) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 2:21 am: |
I believe Alex brings up the original reason I read in the Bonaire Reporter for banning the kiters; they disturbed the breeding birds in the area of Lac Bay. Hasn't Bonaire has already spoken?
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #63) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 9:19 am: |
Brian, Alex it is true I have had to resort to language that is making some uncomfortable; but that is solely because I have had an audience that is clearly more interested in maintaining there interest only. I would have thought that somebody would have parsed my message and identified with were I am coming from, I was wrong. I'm not sure were I go from here, away maybe? I'm sure you would all enjoy that, the rest of you could just go back to the comfy BT that existed before my attempts to understand the situation, explore alternatives, and make some general objective suggestions. Its worth mentioning I did try to start a new thread here, I think its illustrated in the tone and demeanor that was presented, I have also resisted personal attacks in an effort to keep this on target and useful. Unfortunately many have here have decided to provoke me rather then meet me half way, this has truly been a lesson in NIMBY politics, and nothing more. In the end you will all share the same fate, through all of you Bonaire has secured its fate to be the least tolerant and ignorant of the Antillian Islands. My will is undeterred, my affection for the island un-broken, I will find a way to support Bonaire in some means. Hopefully the next generation of Bonarians will not suffer the fate many of you have secured for her, hopefully good will and the spirit of sharing the island, its resources, and its people will not be deterred. If there is anyone out there who is listening and would like to continue the conversation on another level please PM me, I have ideas, and some resources relative to kiting. If anyone knows a kid who needs a kite let me know.
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By Cynde (Moderator) (Moderator - Post #341) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 10:50 am: |
Stephen, did you read Seb's post? Maybe you should read it again.
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By Kelly (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4846) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 12:19 pm: |
"I'm not sure were [sic] I go from here, away maybe?"
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #64) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 12:49 pm: |
Thanks Cynde, I will investigate what possibilities may exist. If anyone knows a candidate for gear I would be interested, I dont have much money but I do enjoy support from a great kite company, they have expressed a desire and willingness to support the distressed kids on Bonaire and would entertain a proposal. Personally I have two children of my own and cant afford financial support.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #65) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 1:19 pm: |
Kelly, I apologise for my tone, unfortunately I have been defensive in my responses especially as it relates to the few who have condemned kiting. What Bonaire needs is a safe place to kite, all the money in the world cant change that, only the will of the people or more importantly, the decision of whomever calls the shots can do that.
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By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4416) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 5:37 pm: |
Stephen, What Bonaire needs is a safe place to kite
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #66) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 6:46 pm: |
Martin, thanks for that, really. I think thats the closest thing to an Olive branch yet. I agree with what you said completely however I think my voice is the only one that is trying to listen. What I mean by that is if you go through the entire thread, (both the original and this new one) you will find that almost everyone with the exception of just a few isnt even interested in dialogue. Really, just read through, how many people have acually presented a willingness to see kiting accepted at either Lac or Atlantis under any condition, sure I have offended some sensibilities but the fact that nobody has engaged me on content level suggest to me I'm simply barking up the wrong tree. Nobody on BT is interested in acually kiting, they dont do it, and they dont care. This may explain why I havnt got past throwing insults, I simply havnt got pass being defensive and invalidated. I'm a pretty rational guy, I like a civil discussion, I thought that BT may be a good place to introduce the kiting dilema and in so get some feed back about the problems and find out whats being done to address them. I've been back on BT for what I think is the third year, its going nowhere for reasons I simply cant understand, there are solutions for all the problems. Sure can something bad happen, can it be made 100% safe? no, life is fragile and in the end I quote what I think Greg Hamilton said, "Im not scared of dieing, I'm afraid of a life unlived" No doubt kiting is going through some growing pains, I just dont understand the level of contempt that exist here for kiting, it is a fantastic green sport. Some of the reactions I have encountered here make it seem as if I pulled up in a pickup truck with a couple of dirtbikes. While many of you may be hardcore divers or windsurfers, you really should check out kiting, its a good fit for anyone who is connected with the water and would really diversify any visit to the island. In the end maybe Bonaire isnt ready for the culture that is kiting, Lac Bay would have a few more unfamiliar faces that would shock some and amuse many.
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By Cynde (Moderator) (Moderator - Post #342) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 7:01 pm: |
Stephen, you just don't get it. 99.9% of the divers on this board are NOT against kiting or kiters. They do not have contempt for kiting, or windsurfers in any way. They are FOR exactly what Martin just stated. Particularly those divers who have almost gotten hit by a kiter at a dive site NOT close to Atlantis, and there have been many.
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By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2959) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 8:01 pm: |
Oh Stephen, you were progressing quite well, right up to kick in the head comment. There's a lotta love in a dope slap.
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By Tim (BonaireTalker - Post #44) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 8:26 pm: |
Cynde said: "Stephen, you just don't get it. 99.9% of the divers on this board are NOT against kiting or kiters"
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By Kelly (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4850) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 8:34 pm: |
I can chime in with personal knowledge of a near miss at Margate Bay.
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By Tribs, RD (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3497) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 8:47 pm: |
Ok...my repeated aborted dives due to a kite boarder being present happened at Pink Beach last May and June. It was the same person on each occasion, dark truck, beat up, not a rental. And this is not an exaggeration, most likely what happened is that my vacation and his vacation coincided. That does not mean my report nor any one else's should be dismissed as exaggerated because not everyone experiences the same thing. Remember, I was there when the winds were kicking so there probably was a good reason for that kite boarder being down at Pink Beach during that time. We also had an aborted dive that same trip at Tori's Reef because a kite border was there.
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By Cynde (Moderator) (Moderator - Post #343) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 8:49 pm: |
Tim, on the thread where I have provided a link above, there are several reports given by well known board members with their reports of almost being hit. There are also listed on that thread the number to the marine park to report the incident after it happens. So, I don't believe the reports are exaggerated.
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By Tim (BonaireTalker - Post #45) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 9:37 pm: |
Cynde said: "Mods have "day jobs" and sometimes we just don't get around to business until we are done with our "paying jobs." "
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By Kelly (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4855) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 9:45 pm: |
And in the "make-lemonade-Rebecca-of-Sunnybrook Farm-Pollyanna" portion of today's programming....
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By Tribs, RD (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3500) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 9:46 pm: |
Deductive reasoning would allow a kiter to determine if a diver was present. If there is a truck present...is there a gear bag in the back or are there tanks in the back? Yes...you have divers. If no to the tanks/gear bags, then: Are there visible kiters? Are there visible snorkelers? No...you most likely have divers in the water.
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By Tim (BonaireTalker - Post #46) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 10:15 pm: |
Tribs, your deductive reasoning assumes that the kiter enters at the same location, or at least parks near the diver. But since the kiters are from most accounts here, often zooming down the coast, that does not apply. Also seeing a gear bag in the back of the truck would mean the diver ignored the often recommended advice to leave nothing in the truck worth stealing -- a gear bag would be worth stealing. And I have never brought extra tanks to a site; it is easy enough to return and get new tanks during the surface interval.
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By Tribs, RD (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3502) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 10:42 pm: |
Tim...they were just suggestions for a kiter who is seriously concerned about diver's safety. Many people take multiple tanks and yes, people do ignore the golden rule of take nothing with you - read the trip reports. If you want to get picky, you could look for water bottles. Again, use common sense. If there is a truck and no one visible - you most likely have divers in the water.
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By Tim (BonaireTalker - Post #47) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 7:59 am: |
"But for now, it is every diver and kiter for himself/herself and I will be using common sense when I choose my dive sites."
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #67) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 9:42 am: |
Wow, what can I say, this is how the discussion should be. So many constructive comments I just dont know where to start. Near misses is a good starting point. I have no doubt that there have been some scary situations I would however like to say "close" is not necassarily dangerous. When we drive a car down the road there are many other cars, in front behind, head on, do we get worried about the possible crashes that are everywhere? I'm not suggesting that people shouldnt be or that something bad couldnt happen but I think Jeroen has stated it pretty clearly, if a kiter is downwind of a diver there is zero chance of an accident, you could be inches and there would be no threat.
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By jenny (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #264) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 10:59 am: |
Stephen,
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By Susan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1747) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 1:21 pm: |
Tim,
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2064) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 1:37 pm: |
I can see nothing new here.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #68) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 2:44 pm: |
Jenny you may be right, you may be wrong. Personally I think the shape of a kite resembles more of a cloud then a bird of prey IMO, not to be a wise guy, but let me know if you ever see a bird of prey the size of kite, I'll be the first to run away. I would think that part of any strategy that would introduce kites to Lac would also require an analysis and study relative to the impact of kites on the bird population. I do fear that any study would be biased towards the environment though if it wasnt a long term exercise. The key to any good environmental policy is grounded in an objective analysis that doesnt marginalise human interaction; otherwise Bonaire would be off limits to all of us, including divers, windsurfers, kayakers, hikers etc. Its always the new guy that is held up to some standard that completely contradicts existing uses. Unlike a virgin forest or wetland, Lac has had humans in its daily activities for some time, I would be surprised to see any changes to the status quo relative to kiting. In New England the Piping Plovers and Osprey dont seem to flinch at us and as long as as we stay out of their nesting areas the Audubon seems copesthetic. Kiting wont stop birds from reproducing, will it disturb them on occasion, I suspect that kites along with any other activity may make them flinch on occasion, but I dont think they will be disrupted in any crucial way. No doubt some birders will contradict this as they are dedicated protectors and staunch supporters for there environment, I suspect some will object but until a definitive long term study is done, opinions are just that, opinions.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #69) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 3:04 pm: |
Brian, how can a kiter earn respect without the opportunity. Man, you are so uptight about the kiting thing, I wish I had you here fighting the windfarm proposed for Nantucket Sound, talk about a disaster. To be clear, I am pro windfarm and alternative energy, I just think its an inapropriate spot; as well as, privatising the resource of Nantucket Sound is just wrong IMO.
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By James Thomas (BonaireTalker - Post #66) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 3:25 pm: |
Kiters would be fine if most of'em didn't try to play pinball with divers heads. I've seen some real winners on the south end, all they could do was try and stay in a upright position without any reguard as to where they were headed.
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2070) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 3:46 pm: |
Stephen the kiters currently have access at Atlantis, if they behave and engender respect by acting safely then maybe if they keep a clean record the authorities may be grant access elsewhere. I have nothing against any other users of the ocean as long they do not endanger the environment or the safety of others.
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By jenny (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #266) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 4:23 pm: |
"Personally I think the shape of a kite resembles more of a cloud then a bird of prey"
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By Mike (BonaireTalker - Post #59) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 4:30 pm: |
One idea for divers being seen, as was mentioned earlier about not wanting to tow a dive flag, is to carry a signal tube with you and on your safety stop, just prior to your surfacing, you can inflate it and have it on a spool that floats above you until you surface. I use this technique when diving in known boat channels in the PNW - works very well, and doesn't require that you have a float attached all through your dive. I've also seen this used in Cozumel by the DM's for drifts so the boat knows when to come by to pick you up. Just my 2cents on being seen!!
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #70) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 4:44 pm: |
James nobody is playing pinball with peoples heads thats simply a sarcastic rant, lets keep the conversation constructive.
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By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2960) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 6:13 pm: |
Keep the conversation constructive? Thanks for the laugh. James points out that some kiters are not very skilled, and would engender fear in any sane diver surfacing in their midst. And what does Stephen do? Dismisses James.
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2072) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 6:15 pm: |
Stephen
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By Jeff Simon (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #9) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 8:45 pm: |
This and all its common threads have gotten completely off target....I do, as a person who has enjoyed Bonaire, and both dive and kite have a question for anyone who cares to give an opinion.
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By Kelly (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4861) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 9:21 pm: |
Yes, it is extreme, but what if I looked up too late, got whacked in the head, and drowned? That sounds like endangerment to me.
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By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2962) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 10:49 pm: |
Sorry about that outburst, apparently in addition to not using machinery for the next 17 hours, I shouldn't be posting either.
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2085) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 2:19 am: |
Seb - maybe you need a holiday. Can I recommend a little island close to Venezuela
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #71) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 8:52 am: |
Seb, Seb, Seb, like I said I have no problem with windfarms its just a matter of context. Just becuase its renewable doesnt mean that it's a good idea. There is "green" and then there is "mean green" What would you think about some private entity putting up 180 turbines 420' tall at Lac bay and then selling it to the existing power company at a premium? many scientist think that wind power is not the answer to our power problems; it's inefficient and not sustainable, at least on the water and in the northeast climate.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #72) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 9:11 am: |
Please Kelly, I hear you completely, I never said kiting would save the children. all I said is that it warrants attention because Bonaire could use all the help it can get. What if as a caveat to a proposal to allow kiting at Lac Bay there should be a surcharge that in some part went to the distressed children and the environment? Is that a good idea?
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By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #512) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 10:06 am: |
Jeff, the last marketing meeting one month ago gave figures. Some 85% of the tourists on Bonaire are divers and-or snorklers, just under 5% are windsurfers - bird watchers, kite surfers etc have % figures far under 5%.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #73) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 11:39 am: |
Brigitte, I understand those rules, and endorse them. I would interject that they are well conceived and articulated. The only thing i would point out is the following:
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2090) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 11:48 am: |
Stephen have no issue with kiting or windsurfing I think they are valid sports.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #74) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 12:22 pm: |
Cynde, how much more of this am i going to take before you speak with Brian?
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2091) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 1:34 pm: |
Stephen I still have no issues with kiting or windsurfing other than the concerns I posted above. I think they are valid sports
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By Patrick T. aka Guido (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1450) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 1:36 pm: |
Stephen have you not noticed, that you seem to be by your self. Nobody else is out there helping your cause. The second thread and you still don't get it. Would you like some cheese SIR?
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2094) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 1:52 pm: |
Patrick
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #75) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 2:16 pm: |
Yes Patrick, it's beginning to dawn on me. Sometimes you have to get in the sandbox even if its the only sandbox, regardless if its full of bullies. I wasnt expecting to find any support, I've acually been surprised at the few who have shown the courage to stick their neck out. My intent wasnt to pal around with my buds, I have plenty of that where I live and play, instead I was hoping to hear some of the concerns that many BT'ers have about kiting so they could be addressed in a diplomatic and democratic way, what a joke. I thoght that the biggest issue was with windsurfing, its pretty obvious that the divers who represent 85% of the activity on Bonaire and 99% of the opinions here think they rule the roost. Patrick if you read through the threads I'm sure Mike, Jeff, and Jeroen aswell as some others are also dilusional, what was your point, to invalidate and marginalise kiters. I have a suggestion, why dont you change Bonaire Talk to Bonaire Diver Talk. The apparent lack of windsurfers on this thread has reinforced my initial point that windsurfing is waining and that kiting could do more then any of you to re-establish Lac Bay as a premier water sport destination, but what do you care, your to busy bashing the messenger to hear the message.
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2102) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 2:26 pm: |
Patrick
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By Alex Brown (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #170) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 2:34 pm: |
Stephen,
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By Jim Peters (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #106) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 2:55 pm: |
Very interesting discussion.
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By Kelly (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4874) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 4:29 pm: |
Honestly, I don't know how much more visible I could have been at Margate Bay. Has anyone SEEN my dive skin?? It's visible to passing aircraft. I also have neon green on my snorkel and I was snorkeling... NOT diving.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #76) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 4:37 pm: |
Alex, firstly, my sense of a diplomatic converstion may be a bit more colorful then yours, all I did was challenge somebody elses account. Secondly, I never said kiting doesnt come with some risk, for that matter none of the activities being talked about are "safe", all I was putting fourth was that measure could be taken to mitigate the conflicts, several suggestions were made. thirdly, I never said that kiting or windsurfing could ever dominate the tourist industry, simply diversify. As to the demographicv curve let me suggest you are incorrect, at the risk of devulging too much personel info, I'm 43yrs old, I have a wife and two kids. If I spend 5k on a trip to Bonaire to pursue kiting, snorkeling, and diving my money should be as welcomed as anyones. Lastly, RAMSAR wetland condition is not unique, Lac could easily support a buffer that is consistent with good environmental practice.
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By Kelly (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4879) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 4:47 pm: |
PS. Mods, sorry about the trash mouth... got carried away. Will do better next time. xo
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By Alex Brown (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #171) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 6:18 pm: |
Stephen, you said:
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #77) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 7:06 pm: |
Sorry Alex, I was confused, it was Jim whos comments about demographics I was referring. Also I would like to say Jim made some good observations and I appreciate the civility in which it was presented, cudos to you sir, even if I dont agree with everything you said it was a well articulated and constructive comment :^)
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By Alex Brown (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #172) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 9:49 pm: |
Stephen,
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By Cynde (Moderator) (Moderator - Post #344) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 9:54 pm: |
One thing I am always reminded of is that Bonaire is not "our" island. Bonaire belongs to the locals, the natives. We are mere tourists to where they were born, live, or where they have made their home. We have our ideas in regard to what we would like to see happen, change, or take place. Also, Bonaire Talk has absolutely no power whatsoever to make anything happen in regard to change on the island like getting kiting back into Lac Bay. All Bonaire Talk has the ability to is to one of two things:
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By Jim Peters (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #108) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 9:46 am: |
Stephen,
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #78) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 9:47 am: |
Alex, are you serious? I pay too much attention to this thread, I simply confused your post with the one below, nothing more. How have i not tried to address peoples concerns, I have made several suggestions that are tangible and realistic, i will share these once again:
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By Cynde (Moderator) (Moderator - Post #345) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 10:19 am: |
Stephen, I challenge anyone to be open minded and to hold off on that position until a qualified and independent review has been done.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #79) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 10:23 am: |
Cynde I dont follow the "dead in your tracks argument" if I understand what you are saying its the only reasonable way to come to conclusions that ould support your contentions. If I follow your catch 22, I would suspect our justice system in the US would be far worse, maybe you have heard this "innocent until proven guilty" I am perfectly able to live with the results of a study if it was independent, and was understood from the onset that any activity is in conflict with the environment. That being said it is incumbent that a degree of disruption is tolerable. Be careful here, this argument also supports the continued diving, snorkeling, bird watching, kayaking and other industries that Bonaire needs to survive as a "green" island.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #80) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 10:29 am: |
Cynde, respectfully speaking, if your think you head hurts I wish you try mine on. My expectations were simply to test the waters, BT has given me more of an opportunity to not only test the waters but to understand the many interest involved. dare say it has also been a good mental workout, parsing the interest and developing a well understood position has been a huge benefit for me. A cocktail party? now thats the best idea yet!
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By Kelly (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4884) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 11:12 am: |
Cynde, I would still be in the room just because I like to watch train wrecks. lol.
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By Kelly (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4887) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 11:26 am: |
The waters have been tested. The cocktail shrimp has been eaten. I believe the party is over.
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By Patrick T. aka Guido (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1454) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 11:42 am: |
BUT there is still some CHEESE left if you need it.LOL
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By Alex Brown (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #173) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 11:46 am: |
Stephen,
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By Jim Peters (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #110) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 3:03 pm: |
Yes Alex, he meant to address that to me.
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By Vince DePietro (Bellevue Condos # 9) (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #485) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 5:31 pm: |
Cynde...before this party completely breaks up, could you get me a Johnny Walker Black (a double) on the rocks please. Time for a night dive!
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #81) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 7:27 pm: |
Hey bartender, another round please.... Jim, I think what you outlined is valid, and possible. I just got back from the beach, got a great session on my 9m, windy as a mofo, and then some. Great to be out riding with my friends and windsurfing brethren. They be on the way to Bonaire shortly for a little freestyle, wheres the love....one for the road please....
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By Baby Donkey (BonaireTalker - Post #16) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 10:01 pm: |
Where's Wally and who stole his beer?
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By Baby Donkey (BonaireTalker - Post #17) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 10:02 pm: |
Where's Wally and who stole his beer?
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By Baby Donkey (BonaireTalker - Post #18) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 10:03 pm: |
oops!
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2116) on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 4:55 am: |
Just popped in to straighten the chairs ready for the next thread. Someone left some fairly ripe socks behind - have left them outside by the door.
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By WaldoDonkey (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #8) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 11:20 am: |
Apparently Wally was off tormenting some Redfish on Friday (being a clairvoyant donkey and all I know things but I do know what he would say:
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #82) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 11:49 am: |
after a hell of a hangover and a few lazy days, back to topic:
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By Cynde (Moderator) (Moderator - Post #346) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 12:32 pm: |
Stephen, welcome back...cocktail party is over. Can you please post the link you got Jack's post from?
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2162) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 1:42 pm: |
Stephen
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2163) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 2:03 pm: |
Sorry Stephen I have had a really hard day getting ready for big meeting tomorrow.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #83) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 6:26 pm: |
Heres the link Cynde,
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #84) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 6:27 pm: |
woops sorry, i was a little quick on the trigger, I'll look some more....
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By Tom (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3631) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 6:42 pm: |
Stephen, allow me, I meant to post this link earlier anyway: http://www.oldbonairetalk.com/cgi-local/bbs/show.cgi?tpc=2488&post=348927#POST348927
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #85) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 6:45 pm: |
Thank you... ;^)
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #86) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 6:53 pm: |
It seems we have a mystery.... or not.
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By Tom (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3632) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 8:23 pm: |
All, because I am ignorant of what Kiteboarding and it's participants are about, I have been researching this past week. While there are many sources of information, I ended up focusing primarily on the message board for the Florida Kiteboarding Association. I discovered that, like scuba divers, boarders are a diverse group made up of people of many occupations. That for the most part they are dedicated to practicing their sport in a safe and responsible manner. Kiteboarders are as willing and able to spend money for quality training, equipment and travel as scuba divers. I also discovered that they have hearts, attempt to reunite lost gear (expensive) to it's rightful owner, come to the aid of their fallen comrades have even rescued people other than their fellow Kiteboarders. Kind of like the members that make up this board.
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By Cynde (Moderator) (Moderator - Post #347) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 8:37 pm: |
Stephen, why not encourage your friends who are on Bonaire now, to post a nice trip report on BT, under this topic when they get back. It is certainly welcome and I'm sure everyone would enjoy the report as well as pictures. It might just broaden everyone's perspective.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #87) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 9:36 pm: |
Tom, thanks for the encouraging words, my friends will be windsurfing, I think they leave next week. I wish I was going.
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By Ann Phelan - www.bonairecaribbean.com (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2431) on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 9:18 am: |
Steve, Who is coming during low season? If they are friends of yours perhaps I know them and can be on the lookout to say hi...strange time of year to leave Cape Cod's winds for our no wind..awell, they can dive and do other fun stuff..
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By Cyn (GH) (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #19900) on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 9:42 am: |
Stephen, please encourage them to write a trip report on their windsurfing trip then With pictures..we LOVE pictures
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By Ann Phelan - www.bonairecaribbean.com (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2432) on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 9:49 am: |
Cynde, there is no wind lately so you will not see me sail much and I never sail in front of the cam..it's too close to shore..haaaa...it's hard to actually capture someone's image on the cam I think unless they stand in the shallows in front of the shop.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #88) on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 9:57 am: |
Hey Ann, of course you know'em, its Freestyle Fred and some of like minded willy skippers, I dont know all there names but I think one is named Chris. They are the regulars from Kalmus. There going over to Elvis's place, I hope they may open up a discussion about kiting, they are well aquianted with or group of kite kooks, hopefully they wont trash us while on the island, god forbid we share two beaches...lol.
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By Tom (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3633) on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 10:04 am: |
Stephen, see: http://www.oldbonairetalk.com/cgi-local/bbs/discus.cgi?pg=formatting#images
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By Steve Johnson (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #1) on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 2:52 am: |
Wow, too many post to take in all the details but over and over it seems the main point is being missed. The main point I get out of Stephen's post is that Lac Bay would be the safest place to kite and if it was allowed there the majority of the divers and snorkelers would never even see a kite on Bonaire unless they went to Lac Bay to watch the amazing tricks and colorful kites from the beach. I have been to Bonaire with my wife many times before kids and now we will be back for our 3rd trip with kids in Feb. Our oldest will turn 8 while in Bonaire and started windsurfing this summer in Minnesota. He loves it and I can't think of a better place than Bonaire for kids and people learning to windsurf. Kiting is growing big time in Minnesota and there is now much more growth and excitement for kiting than windsurfing. The access for kiters is much less than windsurfers in Minnesota and the kiters tend to drive farther for larger areas of open water and less crowded shore lines. I am still mainly a windsurfer but own one kite for winter use on the lakes in the snow. I think a lot of the problems with kiting is between windsurfers and kiters, not much different than when snowboarding was new and skiers did not like snowboarders. I think the snowboarders and skiers have learned to co-exist and in the future the kiters and windsurfers will also. It has already made much progress in Minnesota. Most windsurfers are very nervous about being anywhere close to a kiter until they understand each other better. I am surprised that the windsurfing operations at Lac Bay have not commented on this issue. I would guess they are the main reason kiting is not allowed at Lac Bay and forcing the kiters to go to the other side of the island and get in the way of divers who may be the least understanding of this new sport.
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2275) on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 3:11 am: |
The point is that the Government has banned Kiting in Lac Bay. You will the environmental points and safety raised above. If the kiters can address these issues then maybe they should lobby for support for the government to overturn the ban.
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2276) on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 3:12 am: |
Steve welcome to BT
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2284) on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 3:34 am: |
Word Hiccup - that should read
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #89) on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 6:01 am: |
Right on Steve, you are correct. Dont mind Brian, hes just like that...lol. Brian, after much debate and and a little poking around its pretty obvious the only reason kiting is banned is because Elvis and Ernest, mostly Elvis, are protecting their interest in maintaining a windsurfing stronghold for there young talent on Bonaire. Kiting was banned no more for environmental reason as it was for safety. Even Jack Chalk has commented in STINAPAS attempts to keep kiting in Lac. I know you have heard this before Brian, your argument as well as many here who agree is hersay, the real reason is that Elvis doesnt want it; of course safety was used as an excuse, but still its just an excuse. Steve, have a great trip, I hope in the future we and our kids get the chance to get in Lac for a spectacular day of kiting. When your there please take a minute to inquire and share your opinion; look at my list of suggestions that could be implemented to make kiting safer, they may be good talking points in a constructive conversation, please let us know how your trip was and if you had any discussions about kiting, be safe, have fun.
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2289) on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 6:41 am: |
Stephen
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By Tom (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3645) on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 7:46 am: |
Brian, I believe Roan and Stephan have addressed most of the "obstacles" in their safety/regulations page. Please see: http://kiteboardingbonaire.com/regulations.htm
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By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #515) on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 8:00 am: |
Yes, they have rules on their page. It is the 15m distance fromt he beach areas that is the problem - that is the swimming/snorkling zone on Pink Beach p.ex. - they should adjust that to the 100m as is done elsewhere. Atlantis is the only area they may be that close
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By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2294) on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 8:52 am: |
Tom
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By Brian (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2509) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 4:29 am: |
More complaints about Kite Boarders are included in the following link.
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By Glen Reem (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2512) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 7:03 am: |
Written rules, on paper or the internet, are only good if they are obeyed, and policed for rule breakers.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #90) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 8:55 am: |
This is insane, kiteboarders have but one place to kite, its a location with 'off-shore' wind and that is the issue. To call kiteboarders "arrogant" is wrong and rude, for petes sake, one beach and you all are acting like children, move on to another location or help get the kiters back in lac. I still cant understand what the issue is, is it really asking to much to have divers avoid one spot? That is the answer here, not kiters following arbitrary rules that do not account for local conditions. If the Atlantis is to precious then tell us were kiters can go? I appreciate divers, I appreciate the sport, but some of you are a bunch of selfish whiners, get over yourselves and share the road. Bonaire has to be the only place in the world that divers seem to think they can just completely disregard decades of learned safety precautions. If a diver refuses to use good judgement, refuses to use a diving flag, refuses to use a sausage, what can i say, if its not a kite it will be something else that hits you. many here are making a big deal about suggested rules on FKA or IKO guidelines, what ever happened to taking a little responsibility and read your own rules, dive spots should be marked with a flag, any diver worth his weight knows that. I know Bonaire is unique, I know that divers have been subverting the well estblished rules because of the "conveinance" that Bonaire provides, but really, take some precautions or move to another beach. Brian, Glen, I really cant believe you two, you really are showing your colors here, I use to be so interested in diving, and now I'm really turned off.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #91) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 9:01 am: |
Glen you are full of it! Kiters were not banned from Lac for any other reason then Elvis wants the bay for his windsurfing team, and thats it. Many solutions can be implemented to avoid accidents. For the record, kiting in lac wasnt banned for any reason, not the environment, not safety, simply one mans opinion and a stupid decision based on ignorance, fear, and selfishness. While I believe In his heart he meant well, he meant to protect the fledgling interest of windsurfing, thats all.
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By Tim (BonaireTalker - Post #49) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 9:15 am: |
So much for a lack of bias on BT against kiteboarders.
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By Alex Brown (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #175) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 9:44 am: |
Stephen,
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By Tim (BonaireTalker - Post #50) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 10:07 am: |
Alex,
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By Brian (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2510) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 10:23 am: |
I posted the link to allow kiters to see the perspective of holiday makers in Bonaire now.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #92) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 12:44 pm: |
Brian, the situation is political. not environmental or safety, this thread has gone full circle. If by the government you mean -well connected indviduals who operate a windsurfing concession on Bonaire you would be correct. All the "so called" reasons for the ban have been are false.
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By Brian (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2511) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 3:30 pm: |
Stephen I also said from above
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #93) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 5:10 pm: |
For the record I tried to edit my post but was to late. It be better if BT gave a little more time to edits posts.
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By Jim Peters (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #115) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 6:28 pm: |
Well, if all of the reasons you're banned from Lac Bay are false and only one person has managed to keep it that way. Then until this person passes away or sells their interest I suggest you get used to the status quo because it seems like short of that nothing is going to change. You should probably just chalk this one up as one of lifes' lessons about power, politics, and how it can just be flat out unfair sometimes. From there it's up to you what you want to do. It seems to me the basic choices are either, make the most out of Atlantis that you can, find another location with favorable conditions other than Bonaire, or stay home and be happy with Cape Cod.
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By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #94) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 8:31 pm: |
you are correct, I will kite regardless, alls good.
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By Bill and Donna Goodwin (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #250) on Tuesday, December 5, 2006 - 5:05 pm: |
Jim - Sorry that I only just found your reasoned, intelligent analysis/summation/suggestions - best I've seen on this topic. Have you or anyone forwarded your excellent analysis from October to STINAPA? I think it would help them very much in their efforts to design an equitable, workable policy on south coast kiting. Thanks for being the voice of reason in this emotional, ongoing discussion. I've attempted a few entries on the topic on other threads that attempted to do what you have actually done. Good work.
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By Bill and Donna Goodwin (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #251) on Tuesday, December 5, 2006 - 5:09 pm: |
Oh, and Jim ... we're into hookbills too (previous decades there have been Amazons, pericas, and a military macaw - only a gregarious cockatiel at the moment)... hadn't thought about the bird/kiter issue but I can confidently assert that anytime a crow or its shadow comes anywhere near, it scares the bejeesus outta Rosie and it takes 156 minutes to settle him (yes, him) down again.
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