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Kitesurfing, Windsurfing and Sailing: Kiteboarding
Bonaire Talk: Kitesurfing, Windsurfing and Sailing: Archives: Archives 2001 - 2006: Archives - 2005-04-01 to 2006-12-31: Kiteboarding
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #50) on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 5:23 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Its been a year since I inquired about the status of kiteboarding at lac bay. Its been rough going. I just thought that people here should now that the few detractors are still ever present. I just thought some of you who dont follow the thread "kiteboarding on Bonaire" may want to take a look. Some of you may want to know what others have been saying, personally I'd like to think they dont speak for everyone. This situation may be affecting many of you directly or indirectly. The basic jist is simple, as a windsurfer and kiter I know all to well the status of the industry, kiting is gaining huge support throughout the world while windsurfing is struggling; many people who would otherwise come to Bonaire to do it all; such as, dive, snorkel, windsurf and kite are having to make plans at other destinations because of the situation. If you are dependent on tourism you may want to know that kiters are not solely kiters, we are dads, moms, sons, daughters, divers, and windsurfers. Many on the thread have objected to kiting for what ever reason, but the result is the same, as a result of the current situation you are loosing revenue, friends and some may be seeing less of there families. The thread is long and sometimes discouraging as it has really become very ugly. Again I just thought some of you may want to know what others have had to say, after all their voices have deterred any reasonable dialogue on what I would think could be a win win for all.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde (Moderator) (Moderator - Post #336) on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 6:08 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, I've deleted your duplicate thread in the Support Bonaire topic area as it didn't belong there, and it's also against Bonaire Talk policy (which is about to change in the next couple of days). You can also read it here - spamming threads:

http://www.oldbonairetalk.com/newsgroup/messages/25/152184.html?1078174978

and here

http://www.oldbonairetalk.com/newsgroup/messages/25/134577.html?1072714185

Play nice

Cynde

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1828) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 3:55 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

If Kiters cannot police themselves and continue to put divers at risk by speeding in the shallows and kiting away from Kite Beach then regulations are needed and should be policed.

I really do not want a thread titled Diver killed in Kiteboard incident.

Brigitte posted about why kiters were banned from Lac Bay - I guess you never saw the injuries to the windsurfers ??? Lots of blood, lots of stitches .... or the damage done to the boards ????

Stephens ill considered reply was - bridgette you gotta be kidding, blood, stitches? while I have no doubts accidents can and will happen, I am also sure that this is not true and likely a harsh rumor that has been propegated by sellfish discontented sailboarders.

Stephen by the way a fishmonger can sell fish

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #51) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 7:38 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Brian, i asked Bridgette to substatiate those claims, she did not. I dont believe it happened and if so would be interested in the circumstances so that it could be avoided in the future. Brian, please consider that there are subjective forces working here, I'm not sure youve taken into consideration the many faceted issues such as the status quo, vendors at Lac, and the bias surrounding the current situation. I'm not saying that kiteboarding isnt potentially dangerous, furthermore its worth mentioning that windsurfing, diving, and snorkeling come with inherent risk. Currently the location that kiters are forced to go is dangerous for them. Would you for feel any better if the headline wrote, kitesurfer dies becuase he/she spent the night on the water because they were blown off shore? The simple truth is kiting has come along way in the last four years, its safer, its more popular, and Bonaire could serve herself by revisiting the situation at Lac Bay. Any amendment to the current condition could be rescinded if it didnt work. Why there is so much negativity sorrounding kiting on Bonaire continues to be a mystery to me.

Brigitte posted about why kiters were banned from Lac Bay - "I guess you never saw the injuries to the windsurfers ??? Lots of blood, lots of stitches .... or the damage done to the boards ????"

This is a curious statement, when did kiters hurt windsurfers, I mean how many windsurfers were hurt? secondly she said "damage to boards" I mean how many boards were damaged by kiters. I'm sorry this doesnt add up at all and I suggest you do some detective work before you choose sides? The best reason to ban kiting at Lac was the fact that it may compete with the windsurfing concession. No doubt Bonaire has great pride in the fact that the kids have had a great go of it, they did well in contests and are responsible for great pride throughout Bonaire. Given the talent there and the fact that windsurfing is struggling I would think that Bonaire should consider reintroducing kiting to Lac for the benefit of the next generation. I understand divers concerns, I understand the political conflict, I understand potential dangers, I understand that a fair and equitable solution for all is possible.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1829) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 8:27 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen

i think you need to open your eyes and read what has been written, divers have already had near misses in the shallows with kiteboarders - THIS IS WRONG!!! I don't what part of this you can't understand, we need separation between divers and boarders is this too difficult a concept for you to understand.

I have nothing against any forms of sport and recreation such as kite boarding, but when sports cannot SAFELY share resources such as the dive sites then changes HAVE to made.

Kite boarders need to have respect for others so that they do not create danger for others. How do you suggest that they do this and adhere to this.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2953) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 10:49 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, how many folks have died kitesurfing in your area over the past year?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde (Moderator) (Moderator - Post #337) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 10:51 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, English is not Brigitte's first language, so I think there is a communication issue in what you are reading from what she was posting. Secondly, Brigitte is a long time BT poster and an island business owner and is very well known for posting facts, not hearsay. She has a "reputation" of integrity here on BT, so what she posts is taken as factual, and in my book she does not need to show me pictures, provide horrid details, names, etc. I'm sure she would if we asked her. Her reputation preceeds her. That's the nice thing about Bonaire Talk. Some people, business owners and community members have proven to be upstanding members of this community and their word is valued and trusted. Sure, no one is perfect, but for the most part, you can pretty much trust what they say to be on the mark, particularly if they live on island. Brigitte is one of these people. I could name a few others.

Now, I need to get ready for my paying job.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #52) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:19 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Brian I think you are confused. my argument is to get kiters back into Lac Bay, not at Atlantis. I dont think there is much of an issue with hitting a diver in Lac bay, its waist deep; if there was a problem you would haved bitched about the windsurfers also.

Lastly, who do you think you are? I live in a free country, is it your position that Bonaire should be ruled and not governed? Its one dive site amongst many, you cant be serious, your argument suggest you are more important than everyone.

I've been asked by Cynde to play nice but you sir do not deserve the respect that Cynde suggests.

Cynde forgive me, but this guy is a meglomaniac.

For the record I think it needs to said that I have litttle interest in this debate. My initial motives were not to get access to Lac for the 10 days every other year I could afford to go, my position was simply to illustrate to people other then Brian that, idigenous citizens should understand that diving isnt the only opportunity on Bonaire, and that people like Brian, Seb, Bridgette dont speak for all citizens of Bonaire.

When I came to Boanaire I met Ronald, Chris, and Sammy amongst many others who worked and windsurfed at Lac, they are terrific kids and now guys; I enjoyed seeing them when they would come to Cape Cod in the US to compete at our 'King of The Cape' competition but now that its not economically feasible because windsurfing is struggling I no longer see them here, the contest was dropped several years ago. So I ask many of you, do you really give a crap about the indiginous people. I'd give up ever coming back to Bonaire to see these kids get a shot at getting into kiting and utimately out on the paying $$$ PKRA tour.

Brian you and the rest of the divers who would otherwise prefer to not see kiters at Atlantis should consider your position carefully, I see much more potential to fix your situation through dialogue, not prohibition. Why not question, why kiters are there in the first place?. If you did this objectively and thoroughly you may realise that my position is pretty neutral and hasnt once invalidated anyone elses interest, infact quite to the contrary, all I have tried to do is get people interested and enthusiastic about the potential of kiting. I'm sure that there are many divers who wold otherwise like to get out of the water once in a while and instead get on it. If anyone is interested in what measures can be done to mitigate conflict and danger while at the same time supporting kiting in a safe and appropriate place, please join the discussion.

Is there a language issue, where are the locals? are their interest being represented?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1846) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:37 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen

It is you who is confused.

I am very clearly talking about divers and interaction with other sports. I am NOT talking about me but divers in general.

To reiterate the main point from my previous post - I have nothing against any forms of sport and recreation such as kite boarding, but when sports cannot SAFELY share resources such as the dive sites; then changes HAVE to made.

I then went on to ask you how this could be addressed. - Kite boarders need to have respect for others so that they do not create danger for others. HOW DO YOU suggest that they do this and adhere to this?

Back to you to address these points.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #53) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:42 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Seb, we havnt had any on Cape Cod, yes two people have died in Conneticut. but both situations were anomelies and the circumstances are this:

Cold winter months and a approaching cold front in which winds shifted and blew offshore, the kiter died having being exposed to the elements overnight, he was discovered 24 hours after the initial distress call. Something not all that impossible at Atlantis. The other guy was a terrible tragedy in which he was launching on a horid beach such as stoney Pink Beach (or whatever baeach it is that Jeroen refers to at the windward side of the island just north of Lac.), he was dragged into a rock. This situation would not have occured if it was at Lac Bay and if he was being assisted with a launch well off the beach and in the water (another caveat to kiting in Lac, it could be done very safely) I have never heard of a substatiated incident of a kiter killing a bystander, whether a windsurfer or diver or whatever. For the record the same thing as the first incident happened to a windsurfer also, im sure its happened to a diver or two also.

OK, now that we are being honest, how many divers have been killed in your area lately? was it diver error or some other circumstance?

Cynde, I'm sure Bridgette is a nice person but Im not sure she is making objective decisions; also I dont think she speaks for everyone, especially the kids and the rest of the distressed community at Lac such as Ro, Sammy, and Chris. Ask her to substatiate her claims, ask her to share specifics, ask her if she would tolerate a civil discussion that would objectively seek a solution for all, go ahead ask her.....

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ann Phelan - www.bonairecaribbean.com (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2417) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:53 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Most of the deaths I am aware of resulted in head injuries sustained when a kiter is catapaulted from the beach to the pavement, something that only happens on onshore conditions (Atlantis is offshore so this could not happen in theory).

If kiting returned to Lac Bay it could only happen dawn to 9 AM and after 5 PM in my opinion as the beach area is too small for kiters and beach goers to launch and swim safetly. (the marina area where kiters used to kite). Not sure why kiting is not allowed up by Cai.

I hope all concerned can work this out.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1856) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:54 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen

You still have not answered my question to you. Or you afraid of a proper debate and continue to prefer name calling and going off subject.

By the way it is still Brigitte and not Bridgette

(Message edited by brianl on October 13, 2006)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #54) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:57 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Brian I have made many suggestions, I will just list a few that would mitigate problems:

1. no kiting at Atlantis

2. creation of a zone in Lac Bay and defined by small bouys as exist now at the reef

3. kiters need to land and lanch at the zone with assitance.

4. possibly allowed for a probationary period.

5. Specific hours such as after 3:00pm only on a probationary basis

6. Limit the amount of kiters.

7. require reasonable sir charge at the vendor areas inwhich kiters get assist from local kite caddys, and shaded storage.

8. require certification for kiters.

9. provide certification through vendors and a rider review.

10. Safe lessons, or no lessons.

11. visitors should ride only out of vendor areas.

12. require kite leashes.

13. review rules and sign a waiver.

14. and make them spend as much money as they can.....

If kiting was allowed on Bonaire it would be one of the most visited kiteboarding locations in the world and only as limited as Bonarians would want it.


 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Johnson (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #235) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:02 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen:

Over the last 10 to 15 years, I have spent probably a total of six months on the island. I have nothing but respect for the Antilleans. I suspect most of the posters here do as well.

Of course the posters on this board don't speak for all Bonaireans. Although more than a few are long time residents. And I have never heard any of them claim to speak for all Bonaireans.

That said, I found your recent posts to be a bit insulting (or, at best, overly dramatic).

"...as a result of the current situation [No kiters in Lac Bay] you are loosing revenue, friends and some may be seeing less of there [sic] families."

There is no question that all tourists to the island spend money. There is also no question that diving is still the cornerstone of that industry on Bonaire. But familes not able to see each other as much because kiters are not allowed in Lac Bay?

I am also very skeptical of someone who wants to visit Bonaire for ten days every other year (and has one or two visits under their belt), knowing what is in the interests of Bonaire. Let alone knowing what they think and feel about the issue. The island is a diverse place, and there are many opinions...

PS: I believe Brigette -- she has always been worthy of my trust. While I have never met her, my on-island sources have always confirmed anything factual she has said (when I asked).

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1862) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:16 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

You want to restore Kiting in Lac Bay but this has been banned. Surely the best approach to achieve this would be for Kiters to be recognised as safe, sensible sportsmen who are respected by other users of the waters on Bonaire.

I think you are currently promoting the opposite; perhaps if you moderated your approach (for example on this board) you would get a more positive reaction.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #55) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:17 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Ann, its been a long time. I agree hours may be a good idea, however I think the whole beach thing should be off limits. The one great asset about Lac is the shallow water, there is no reason why people cant walk out 100 yards or more and launch from a very safe distance with no chance of hitting any obstacle. Also its worth mentioning kites are much safer now. The introduction of the BOW kite which is 100% depowerable is revolutionising the industry, BOW kites have made the sport so much safer to do and to learn, long gone are the days of being catapaulted, check it out.

Cape Cod has more women kiters then ever, Ann you may know some of them, their self proclaimed name is the broad squad!

Any solution to reintroducing kiting to Lac would need to be tuned over time, no doubt growing pains would be present, but thats the thing about kiting, it's growing and in a big, big way. Bonaire should tap into some of it, people like Ann and the vendors, the resorts, the restaurants would see immediate results. If you think kiting is just a little blip you are mistaken.

I'm not sure when Ann was here last but the beach is very different place, For instance at Chapin beach last weekend there was twenty kites up and about 4-6 windsurfers, kiters regularly out number windsurfers 2-1. Ann knows me, she knows my roots stem from windsurfing, it was my passion for years. I live my life around the water, I invest in and around the water, I love the water and have a passion for it, Bonaire is just one place amongst many, in the end kiters will go where they can kite safely, regardless if they windsurf or dive also.

(Message edited by steve_t on October 13, 2006)

(Message edited by steve_t on October 13, 2006)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #56) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:28 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

What can I say, I respect all of your comments. While I may not agree with all of what people say this has been the best interaction relative to the situation so far. I really appreciate the tone and will refrain from my overly defensive and sometimes arrogant behavior.

Sorry about the overly dramatic, I was simply stating that if you knew a kiter before the ban at lac you dont anymore, or at least you dont see them much.... ask Ann.


(Message edited by steve_t on October 13, 2006)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Reem (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2506) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:59 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Is this the fourteenth or fifteenth time wide bandwidth has been used here with just the same arguments and only a different kiter?

As I understand it, kiters were banned from Lac because of irresponsible kiting. The same thing that is happening on the west side. It seems the leopard hasn't changed it's spots

I am beginning to wonder if there is a list of designated 'kiters to stir up' (and annoy) BT with repetitious arguments, one after the other.

Free speech is good but this ' chinese water torture' repetition becomes a nuisance.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #57) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 8:16 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Glen, is that the best contribution you can make? You must have really considered the issue. text removed by moderators

(Message edited by Steve_t on October 13, 2006)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Reem (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2507) on Saturday, October 14, 2006 - 2:46 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Ah, a personal attack instead of reasoned response. Oh well.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #58) on Saturday, October 14, 2006 - 7:53 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Glen said

"Is this the fourteenth or fifteenth time wide bandwidth has been used here with just the same arguments and only a different kiter?

As I understand it, kiters were banned from Lac because of irresponsible kiting. The same thing that is happening on the west side. It seems the leopard hasn't changed it's spots

I am beginning to wonder if there is a list of designated 'kiters to stir up' (and annoy) BT with repetitious arguments, one after the other.

Free speech is good but this ' chinese water torture' repetition becomes a nuisance."

What are you trying to say here, is this some sort of code that reveals a practical and fair suggestion? C'mon Glen, why even say anything if its not going to contribute in some way, if your looking for entertainment I can suggest a few things that might be more challengingtext removed by moderators

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hendrik Wuyts (BonaireTalker - Post #12) on Saturday, October 14, 2006 - 10:07 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

There is so much talk I cant takes the time to read all the stories, I just wonder if any of you have ever been on Bonaire?

I live, scuba dive and kite on Bonaire, never had any problem nor with diving at Atlantis nor with encountering a scuba diver will kiting in shallow or deep waters!

Remember, the PADI Open Water course, never stick you head as first body part above water will surfacing..., I love diving at Atlantis and I still do.
If you are freaky, use your sausage before ascending (standard dive equipment and a good practice)
When we're out kiting we know where there is divers at work and we avoid their entry and exits, do you know your exit under water?
There is plenty of space, and as a diver/kiter we have plenty of love for all of you.

See you at he surf,

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde (Moderator) (Moderator - Post #339) on Saturday, October 14, 2006 - 1:57 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hendrik, most of the posters on this thread have been to Bonaire many many times:-) A sparce few, only a couple:-)

This topic has been discussed many times on BT, and in general, divers do not want to see Kiters/Surfers banned. What they want is safety for everyone. Several divers have surfaced only to see a kiter heading right toward them just a few feet away and had to quickly duck back under...See this thread please.

Stephen, you've been to Bonaire once or twice (I can't remember what' you've said, you've said so much here). And the contributions you have made have been rants about the ban of kiting at Lac Bay. Rather than ranting on BT, take your words to the Government and the parties on Bonaire and try to get action there if you care so much. Your words will do nothing here. BT has no power to make change. The moderators had to spend several hours modifying your posts on this thread due to your name calling and behavior. We will not do that again. We all have lives and paying jobs to attend to. If you don't have constructive things to say, nice things to say, polite things to say, then your account will be suspended forever on Bonaire Talk, and this thread will be closed.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #59) on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 10:05 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cynde, I'm not sure why you consider my opinions "rants". The only "rants" I have made have been in response to provoked attacks from senseless individuals who have commented on my inquiry in a manner only consistent with invalidation and condensending remarks. I only brought this to BT because I thought there may be some people here that may want to understand the situation and in so bring a renewed interest to the continued debate, I was wrong. Interestingly it seems that a caveat to the issue of kiting at Lac Bay has been that divers object to kiting at Atlantis, I concour with that and thought that somebody, anybody, within the the government or the BT constituancy may see the issue in a manner consistent with fair play and a democratic context, again I was wrong. I still dont understand what is so demonstrable in my comments that would subject me to possible censorship. While I agree some of what I have said has been argumentative it hasnt been personel. I think many here have taken some cheap shots at me and I'm not one to pull punches when somebody takes a swing at me. In the end I think what this comes down to is, have people taken swings at me? I hope people can read through the posts and come to their own conclusions. The fact that nobody with exception of a very few have approached this subject with interest and an open mind suggest to me that BT is likely not the place for a dialogue that means to work out an equitable solution for all. Instead all I have heard is negativity, intolerance, and a continued hiearchital argument from the diver contingent; ironically they're not even involved in the problem at Lac. Infact I'm not really sure how we have come to this, it seems that to a large extent we are on the same page.

Lastly, I'm sorry if I have insulted the sensibilities of the status quo here on BT, however I must reiterate that while some may have clout here I find there arguments overly dramatic, and off the mark. If I could afford to go there I would take my position and arguments to the indigenous people of Bonaire, not the transplanted people who think they speak for the entire island community.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1987) on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 2:02 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen if you want Kiters back in Lac Bay - stop posting this rubbish and try and start to build a better images of kiters. Is this too difficult for you?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #60) on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 2:28 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Brian, you just dont get it. This isnt a popularity contest, its about whats fair. But that hasnt occured to you. Do you Dive at Lac, Do you windsurf at Lac? Why dont you stop attacking me and instead think of a possible solution, make an objective and reasonable comment. You are typical of the critical people I have spoken of; basically useless in respect to a dialogue, if you are trying to provoke me into a response that will get me banned from here you are well on your way, good luck next time...

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #61) on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 2:39 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Brian, this is what started this, if you would like to comment please do so in the context that it was intended.


"Its been a year since I inquired about the status of kiteboarding at lac bay. Its been rough going. I just thought that people here should now that the few detractors are still ever present. I just thought some of you who dont follow the thread "kiteboarding on Bonaire" may want to take a look. Some of you may want to know what others have been saying, personally I'd like to think they dont speak for everyone. This situation may be affecting many of you directly or indirectly. The basic jist is simple, as a windsurfer and kiter I know all to well the status of the industry, kiting is gaining huge support throughout the world while windsurfing is struggling; many people who would otherwise come to Bonaire to do it all; such as, dive, snorkel, windsurf and kite are having to make plans at other destinations because of the situation. If you are dependent on tourism you may want to know that kiters are not solely kiters, we are dads, moms, sons, daughters, divers, and windsurfers. Many on the thread have objected to kiting for what ever reason, but the result is the same, as a result of the current situation you are loosing revenue, friends and some may be seeing less of there families. The thread is long and sometimes discouraging as it has really become very ugly. Again I just thought some of you may want to know what others have had to say, after all their voices have deterred any reasonable dialogue on what I would think could be a win win for all."

FYI, I'm not sure what is so offensive here, please do all of us a favor and speak to the issue. If you object to kiting at Lac please indicate why. Many suggestions have been made in an effort to mitigate conflicts, if you would like to contradict these suggestions please do so.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2002) on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 3:16 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

All I can hear is the sound of one hand clapping. Why do you think the other kiters are not posting!!

I think YOU personally are making kiters appear in a bad light. I have nothing against anyone using resources for sport but a lot of angst about people doing things in an unsafe way when sports collide.

Maybe a Jet Ski rental operation should be allowed to start at Atlantis as on other islands!

By the way I have windsurfed at Lac Bay and I have snorkelled there several times - dives to three feet are a bit OTT.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #62) on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 4:59 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Brian, the clapping is just the echo in your head, let it go. If you cant say something objective and on topic just dont say anything.

The reason kiters dont say anything is because they are down to one beach, one spot, one opportunity. Me I have many. I will continue to voice my opinion because it is reasonable and grounded in wanting a good and safe place to kite, its important for everyone to note I dont represent all kiters. Infact my comments really are not from my personal perspective; I have tried to argue that its the kids of Bonaire I want to see represented in this conversation, I have indicated that I would forfit returning to Bonaire if it would support theyre rightful opportunity to use Lac the way they see fit. Would you? If that means no kiting, no windsurfing, no snorkeling I would support it. You are just interested in pursuing the subject in a manner that serves you. I have not heard one person from the BT community speak to this, instead I hear comments from every other angle other then what is in the best interest of the people who by right should have access and authority. I dont think that the service oriented people on the island, those who have little interest other then making an honest living by serving everyone have had an oportunity to hear or be heard, In the end I doubt they care much if its a kiter, windsurfer or diver. I think if I was making many of the kiters uncomfortable they would say something, instead the silence suggest to me you are once again off the mark.

Brian are you still hung up on kiters at Atlantis? start a thread, why invade mine with annecdotal scenarios such as your "jet ski" nonsense. Such comments are not applicable, but you knew that, didnt you.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2005) on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 6:41 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen I can honestly say that Bonaire would be a far better place without you. I now realise that you were not clapping.



(Message edited by brianl on October 16, 2006)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #165) on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 9:34 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen,

I'll give you one reason for banning kiting in Lac. Birds.

I could also give you a list of reasons why folks find your posts rude and antagonistic. Let me know if you would like me to post it.

Listening is a two-way street. You demonstrated on the "Kiting on Bonaire' thread that you were not interested in the concerns of non-kiters--you completely discounted anything they had to say or claimed it must be untrue. You did so in a pretty disrespectful manner. You stated quite clearly that it was, or at least became, your goal to irritate people.

You could have had a 'clean slate' on this thread, but instead you chose to lower yourself to outright personal attacks and insults. So why does it come as such a shock to you that you are not getting a very receptive audience? One begins to wonder if your are just enjoying trying to irritate people and don't actually care about the topic at all.

I am not for banning kiting on Bonaire. I am for making it safe for everyone and for the environment. But I have to say, with all due respect, that your attitude is not doing your sport any favors. I can only hope that it is not representative...if it is please let me know and I will work for an outright kiting ban on Bonaire.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2958) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 2:21 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

I believe Alex brings up the original reason I read in the Bonaire Reporter for banning the kiters; they disturbed the breeding birds in the area of Lac Bay. Hasn't Bonaire has already spoken?

Stephen, if you'd like to do something besides talk to help the youth of Bonaire, we'd be happy to point you in a direction so you could let your wallet do your talking for you. You could donate to Jong Bonaire, Hoppner House, the restaurant school, or many other NGOs designed to truly improve the lot of the island youth by providing job training.

By the way, the "folks around here" you complain about, are the same people who have generously supported this forum's continued existence, which allows you post for free.

(Message edited by seb on October 17, 2006)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #63) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 9:19 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Brian, Alex it is true I have had to resort to language that is making some uncomfortable; but that is solely because I have had an audience that is clearly more interested in maintaining there interest only. I would have thought that somebody would have parsed my message and identified with were I am coming from, I was wrong. I'm not sure were I go from here, away maybe? I'm sure you would all enjoy that, the rest of you could just go back to the comfy BT that existed before my attempts to understand the situation, explore alternatives, and make some general objective suggestions. Its worth mentioning I did try to start a new thread here, I think its illustrated in the tone and demeanor that was presented, I have also resisted personal attacks in an effort to keep this on target and useful. Unfortunately many have here have decided to provoke me rather then meet me half way, this has truly been a lesson in NIMBY politics, and nothing more. In the end you will all share the same fate, through all of you Bonaire has secured its fate to be the least tolerant and ignorant of the Antillian Islands. My will is undeterred, my affection for the island un-broken, I will find a way to support Bonaire in some means. Hopefully the next generation of Bonarians will not suffer the fate many of you have secured for her, hopefully good will and the spirit of sharing the island, its resources, and its people will not be deterred. If there is anyone out there who is listening and would like to continue the conversation on another level please PM me, I have ideas, and some resources relative to kiting. If anyone knows a kid who needs a kite let me know.

Hopefully as the weeds on Bonaire grow old they will decompose and allow the sweet grass to grow.

(Message edited by steve_t on October 17, 2006)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde (Moderator) (Moderator - Post #341) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 10:50 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, did you read Seb's post? Maybe you should read it again.

You may also want to peruse this area of BT

http://www.oldbonairetalk.com/newsgroup/messages/11308/11308.html?1160688191

I sponsor a child at the Hoppner home, and Jong Bonaire is also always looking for support for their youth sports program. There is also a new program for youths here:

http://www.oldbonairetalk.com/newsgroup/messages/11308/271712.html?1155251021

Maybe a kite and a sponsor might help one of those kids....

Just a few suggestions. And again, maybe re-read Seb's post. Most of the people on this thread support in some way many of the non-profit projects on Bonaire in some capacity. Either volunteering, on the Board, etc.

Have a nice day.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kelly (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4846) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 12:19 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

"I'm not sure were [sic] I go from here, away maybe?"

Uh... yeah, away. But I get the feeling you like to keep things stirred up.

I don't think it is necessarily the content of what you are posting, but rather your tone and personal insults.

I agree with Seb and Cynde... let your money talk. Bonaire is always in need of something.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #64) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 12:49 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Cynde, I will investigate what possibilities may exist. If anyone knows a candidate for gear I would be interested, I dont have much money but I do enjoy support from a great kite company, they have expressed a desire and willingness to support the distressed kids on Bonaire and would entertain a proposal. Personally I have two children of my own and cant afford financial support.

I reached out a couple of years ago in an effort to do so, however I was troubled by the kite access on Bonaire, and did not want to endorse the situation as I believe it is dangerous; the last thing I would want is to be indirectly responsible for a tragedy. Like diving or windsurfing, kiting comes with inherent risks, the fact that it may be compounded by the off-shore circumstance is particularly troublesome.

If in the future Lac Bay was to be opened to kiting, even if only to local kids/teenagers I would be very interested in doing what I can. FYI, I have heard of programs such as the one setup here in Boston for the kids of DR, (Dominica Republic) a friend of mine has been sending used gear down there for years.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #65) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 1:19 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Kelly, I apologise for my tone, unfortunately I have been defensive in my responses especially as it relates to the few who have condemned kiting. What Bonaire needs is a safe place to kite, all the money in the world cant change that, only the will of the people or more importantly, the decision of whomever calls the shots can do that.

If the BT community wants to help that would likely do more then I could ever do.


I have no interest in keeping "things stirred up" I have only tried to illicit a response that would start a dialogue, I am very tired trying to do what I think would be in the interest of many on Bonaire even at the expense of the continued beating I'm receiving here. No doubt Seb or Brian or Brigette will once again kick me in the head, with their opinions, if its their position that BT identifies with its really not worth it anymore.

Lastly, I understand the situation relative to migrating birds, even here in the US we have the Piping Plovers, they are responsible for temporary closures of our launch spots for both kiting, windsurfing and cars etc, I'm not sure how this argument supports a complete ban on kiting.

Is there anyone out there who thinks kiting should be returned to Lac under conditional circumstances?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4416) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 5:37 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen,

I'm going to try one last time.


quote:

What Bonaire needs is a safe place to kite




What Bonaire really needs is a safe place for all sports, NOT just kitting. And once again, I DON'T want kiting to be banned from Bonaire, I just want to make sure that, whenever I stick my head up in 3 feet of water (even after my hand is coming up first), I don't see a kite boarder speeding towards me. And I have been in that position, and it was not at Atlantis.

Let's try to make Bonaire safe for all and try to get a dialogue started. (A dialogue is a process of multiple persons talking and listening, while they try to work towards a solution. It is not a system where one person / party tells others what should be done and claims the remarks from the other persons are stories and no more than that.)

'nough said, I hope you will have a long and safe kiting live and that you will be able to find peace in your life.

Martin

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #66) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 6:46 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Martin, thanks for that, really. I think thats the closest thing to an Olive branch yet. I agree with what you said completely however I think my voice is the only one that is trying to listen. What I mean by that is if you go through the entire thread, (both the original and this new one) you will find that almost everyone with the exception of just a few isnt even interested in dialogue. Really, just read through, how many people have acually presented a willingness to see kiting accepted at either Lac or Atlantis under any condition, sure I have offended some sensibilities but the fact that nobody has engaged me on content level suggest to me I'm simply barking up the wrong tree. Nobody on BT is interested in acually kiting, they dont do it, and they dont care. This may explain why I havnt got past throwing insults, I simply havnt got pass being defensive and invalidated. I'm a pretty rational guy, I like a civil discussion, I thought that BT may be a good place to introduce the kiting dilema and in so get some feed back about the problems and find out whats being done to address them. I've been back on BT for what I think is the third year, its going nowhere for reasons I simply cant understand, there are solutions for all the problems. Sure can something bad happen, can it be made 100% safe? no, life is fragile and in the end I quote what I think Greg Hamilton said, "Im not scared of dieing, I'm afraid of a life unlived" No doubt kiting is going through some growing pains, I just dont understand the level of contempt that exist here for kiting, it is a fantastic green sport. Some of the reactions I have encountered here make it seem as if I pulled up in a pickup truck with a couple of dirtbikes. While many of you may be hardcore divers or windsurfers, you really should check out kiting, its a good fit for anyone who is connected with the water and would really diversify any visit to the island. In the end maybe Bonaire isnt ready for the culture that is kiting, Lac Bay would have a few more unfamiliar faces that would shock some and amuse many.

(Message edited by Steve_t on October 17, 2006)

(Message edited by Steve_t on October 17, 2006)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde (Moderator) (Moderator - Post #342) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 7:01 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, you just don't get it. 99.9% of the divers on this board are NOT against kiting or kiters. They do not have contempt for kiting, or windsurfers in any way. They are FOR exactly what Martin just stated. Particularly those divers who have almost gotten hit by a kiter at a dive site NOT close to Atlantis, and there have been many.

Stick a fork in me, I'm done. Check Please.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2959) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 8:01 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Oh Stephen, you were progressing quite well, right up to kick in the head comment. There's a lotta love in a dope slap.

I'm pretty sure the bird breeding was the problem at Lac, and that's sort of a hard reason to get around.

Now if you'd like to investigate doing something positive about kiting on Bonaire, and I'm pretty sure you do, here's my suggestions:

Make a plan. How can kiting best happen on Bonaire? One way is for the kiters to find a way to get along. The new kid has to prove he's OK, there are no free passes. They have been trying to do that with mixed results, and a lot of angry divers. You cannot tell numerous experienced dive instructors with many dives, and visits to the island, that they are doing it wrong, and sport is just dangerous.

The kiters need to be self policing. They need an organization, with rules of conduct. Essentially they are powered vehicles, and divers are pedestrians. In most US states the dictum is the pedestrian always has the right of way, even when they don't, and the driver of the vehicle is responsible to avoid injuring pedestrians.

Maybe you can work with the kite company to help set something up. It would also be great if you could find someone on the island to work with, because native causes need natives involved.

Lastly, I would read what people post with an open mind, and reread it until you comprehend what they are saying. If you think they are attacking you, their words will not reach your mind. It might just be that a century or so of accumulated wisdom by highly trained divers who are successful enough in the world to have been to Bonaire numerous times might be able to lend useful information or advice to advance your cause.




 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim (BonaireTalker - Post #44) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 8:26 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cynde said: "Stephen, you just don't get it. 99.9% of the divers on this board are NOT against kiting or kiters"

I don't know about that, in recent months more than a few BT'ers have almost made it sound like anytime you dare dive in the southern sites, you are likely to run the risk of getting your head run over by a kiteboarder. I dive/snorkel the southern sites about 90% of the time, a few times a week. With Margate Bay and Pink Beach being two of my favorites. I have NEVER even come close to a kiteboarder, I'm not denying the existence of these close encounters; but there is a chance that some of them may have been exaggerated a bit. I don't know.

To see an example of perhaps some obvious bias against kiteboarders by BT'ers, you have only to look at the thread above this one:
"Windsurfer and kiteboarder accident not on Bonaire", describing an accident in North Carolina between a kiteboarder and windsurfers. Why is THAT posted on this board? What REAL relevance does it have to Bonaire? Are we going to start posting threads about every dive accident where one diver drops a tank or weight belt on another divers foot? OR where a diver is stupid enough to put his tank/BC on over his head and conks another diver in the face?

Let's stop patting ourselves on the back for good deeds done and actually start towards generating some good ideas for a potential solution. Obviously the kiters are here to stay. So some optimal solution must be created for them, otherwise Bonaire may decide to completely close access to some spots to divers and making them kiteboarder-only; (to protect the divers and kiters from each other) but I doubt any diver wants THAT.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kelly (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4850) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 8:34 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I can chime in with personal knowledge of a near miss at Margate Bay.

I have never been pro OR con kiteboarding. But in August of this year, while snorkeling a Margate Bay (and very close to the shore) I looked up and a boarder was heading right for me, maybe 40-50 feet away. Keep in mind I am a HORRIBLE judge of distance, but it was close enough that I said "oh !" out loud and swam like the dickens for shore.

When I went in, I saw the kites down much further south, but apparently they move pretty quickly! There ended up being two boarders cutting across right where I had been snorkeling, and this was in about 6 feet of water.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tribs, RD (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3497) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 8:47 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Ok...my repeated aborted dives due to a kite boarder being present happened at Pink Beach last May and June. It was the same person on each occasion, dark truck, beat up, not a rental. And this is not an exaggeration, most likely what happened is that my vacation and his vacation coincided. That does not mean my report nor any one else's should be dismissed as exaggerated because not everyone experiences the same thing. Remember, I was there when the winds were kicking so there probably was a good reason for that kite boarder being down at Pink Beach during that time. We also had an aborted dive that same trip at Tori's Reef because a kite border was there.

Here is the kicker, we as responsible divers chose to not dive these sites because the kite boarder was present. We yielded to the dictum of first come first served. What was frustrating is that we did not dive the "kite board" sites because we knew the risks. We chose to not endanger ourselves. What exactly is wrong with "kite board only" sites or kite board warnings at certain sites during certain time periods? And if you don't like that, how about first come first served for all of the sites? If there is a diver in the water, kite boarders move on and vice versa.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde (Moderator) (Moderator - Post #343) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 8:49 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Tim, on the thread where I have provided a link above, there are several reports given by well known board members with their reports of almost being hit. There are also listed on that thread the number to the marine park to report the incident after it happens. So, I don't believe the reports are exaggerated.

Seb put it very well. I think there is room for everyone. However, I know of at least 6 people personally who have had close calls (way too close for comfort). They have entered the water when no kiters/surfers were in visual range, and upon exiting, almost gotten hit (Martin was one, Kelly was another, that's 2).

I'd love to see Stephen get in contact with Jeroen, or one of the others that run one of the kite operations on Bonaire. That's really what needs to happen Stephen, you need to talk to the kiters on Bonaire. Again, I believe there is room for everyone. Jeroen has suggested divers stop by Atlantis when they are there and chat, I think that's a good suggestion to get dialogue going between the divers and kiters.

Stephen, you can contact Jeroen through his profile by going to this link...it's also about kiting at Lac

http://www.oldbonairetalk.com/newsgroup/messages/2488/268411.html?1154043088

Oh, btw, Tim, the thread you mention above this one is about to be moved to CC, as it's not about Bonaire. Mods have "day jobs" and sometimes we just don't get around to business until we are done with our "paying jobs."

Now, I really am done.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim (BonaireTalker - Post #45) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 9:37 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cynde said: "Mods have "day jobs" and sometimes we just don't get around to business until we are done with our "paying jobs." "

I understand that, I was not critiquing the performance or efficiency of the BT moderators. I was simply using the fact that, that thread was even posted as decent evidence that a bias against kiteboarders does exist by SOME BT'ers.

I would do what Tribs said, if there are kiters present, simply move down to the next spot. But how would a kiter know that there are divers already present at a spot? I sure don't want to drag around a float with a flag on it.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kelly (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4855) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 9:45 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

And in the "make-lemonade-Rebecca-of-Sunnybrook Farm-Pollyanna" portion of today's programming....

I hopped in the truck, headed down to where the kiteboarders were, and proceeded to take a bunch of pictures of them ! If you haven't taken the time to watch, you should do so. It is VERY graceful. [it wouldn't be graceful for me personally though..lol] The first time I saw kiteboarding was when I was with Cynde in Puerto Rico, and I was just mesmerized. Had never even heard of the sport before. When someone knows what they're doing... it's cool as heck to watch.

I saw many more kiteboarders this trip than last year. I know we need a resolution, but unfortunately I don't have the answers. Only questions. :-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tribs, RD (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3500) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 9:46 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Deductive reasoning would allow a kiter to determine if a diver was present. If there is a truck present...is there a gear bag in the back or are there tanks in the back? Yes...you have divers. If no to the tanks/gear bags, then: Are there visible kiters? Are there visible snorkelers? No...you most likely have divers in the water.

I agree, towing a flag/float around is not optimal. A little common sense and one could decipher if a diver was in the water. And if you could not determine if there are divers in the water, but there is a truck present, err on the side of caution and move on to another site.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim (BonaireTalker - Post #46) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 10:15 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Tribs, your deductive reasoning assumes that the kiter enters at the same location, or at least parks near the diver. But since the kiters are from most accounts here, often zooming down the coast, that does not apply. Also seeing a gear bag in the back of the truck would mean the diver ignored the often recommended advice to leave nothing in the truck worth stealing -- a gear bag would be worth stealing. And I have never brought extra tanks to a site; it is easy enough to return and get new tanks during the surface interval.

I think a kiters maintaining a certain distance from shore rule, or just closing off certain sites from divers is where we are heading.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tribs, RD (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3502) on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 10:42 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Tim...they were just suggestions for a kiter who is seriously concerned about diver's safety. Many people take multiple tanks and yes, people do ignore the golden rule of take nothing with you - read the trip reports. If you want to get picky, you could look for water bottles. Again, use common sense. If there is a truck and no one visible - you most likely have divers in the water.

I did not address the situation of kiters entering at one location and zooming down to another. Under my suggestions, I am giving the benefit of the doubt to the kiters that they are conscientious and would pay attention to possible diver locations when they choose their site. Notice, I did not say move to the next site, I wrote move on to another site. Again, this would only work if people paid attention.

And from previous posts, I would have to agree with you that distance, channels, or restricted sites are the way to go; but, only because not everyone is being courteous and conscientious. Again, maybe some education and awareness and a willingness to share the sites would go a long way.

But for now, it is every diver and kiter for himself/herself and I will be using common sense when I choose my dive sites.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim (BonaireTalker - Post #47) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 7:59 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

"But for now, it is every diver and kiter for himself/herself and I will be using common sense when I choose my dive sites."

That's how I see it as well.

The problem is that the very nature of diving hides your presence from people involved in above-water activities. The onus must be on the diver to alert others of their presence. An empty parked truck on the side of the road is not sufficient imho.

In the US, many states have pretty much stated that it is the responsibility of the diver by passing diver flag laws:

Florida: You are required to have a dive flag when diving or snorkeling. http://www.floridaconservation.org/boating/safety/diving_flag.htm

New Jersey: "No diver shall surface more than 25 feet from his buoyed flag except in an emergency. "
http://www.njscuba.com/njdiving/diving_regulations.html

Even Nevada: "Also keep in mind, that Nevada State Law REQUIRES divers to tow a dive flag."
http://www.sierradive.com/dive.htm

Strangely enough, I can't seem to find any California state law pertaining to this.

Yes, I am aware that Bonaire is NOT the U.S. and these state laws do not apply here; but the fact that these laws exist in the U.S. is evidence that the burden is usually on the DIVER, not those involved in other activities.

It would seem to me, that in those states, if a diver not using a flag was hit by a kiteboarder, and if there were any injuries it would be the fault of the diver!

Can anyone think of a workable solution for shore divers to display a flag? Perhaps some process that could be "taught" during the marine park orientation?

Since, some people have stated that kiters don't necessarily know about the "dive flag", teaching kiteboarders about the "Dive Flag" would have to be part of the process as well.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #67) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 9:42 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Wow, what can I say, this is how the discussion should be. So many constructive comments I just dont know where to start. Near misses is a good starting point. I have no doubt that there have been some scary situations I would however like to say "close" is not necassarily dangerous. When we drive a car down the road there are many other cars, in front behind, head on, do we get worried about the possible crashes that are everywhere? I'm not suggesting that people shouldnt be or that something bad couldnt happen but I think Jeroen has stated it pretty clearly, if a kiter is downwind of a diver there is zero chance of an accident, you could be inches and there would be no threat.

I would never want to see divers get excluded from any spot, that simply isnt fair and it would be hypocritical if I was to condone that, kiters know all to well the sad reality of being prohibeted from areas, I for one think a better solution is possible.

Another point I would like to reiterate is the only reason kiters are anywhere near dive sites is because they have been excluded from Lac Bay. Yes I know some must be rolling their eyes but I still think the bird issue is overblown. As an environmentalist myself I can accept that conclusion if there was some proof that kites present a danger to them, I have not seen any documentation other than opinion that would suggest the situation would warrant complete exclusion from Lac. Sure there may times that conflict with breeding or some other behavior but I kinda doubt it. I have never seen a bird injured by a kite nor have I seen them modify their behavior. Until a kite acually attacks a bird I dont see the threat. Some people here on Cape Cod have argued "the shadows scare them" -what? I mean come on, if shadows scared them they would be frieghtened by the clouds etc. Birds are funny, they adapt very well, at first they may be threatened but they are qwick to adapt when they realise that kites are not birds of prey and that kites are no threat. I think people should consider the possible alterior motives of the bird argument and that maybe it was a knee jerk reaction that was convienant for many reasons.

I would like to ask a question that some of you may be ale to answer. What is it like in Lac these days, has the windsurfing their been any different in the last few years? If its anything like here or other places i have been its different these days, windsurfing has been loosing popularity for many sad reasons, kiting is just one of them. The reason I ask this is because if it is the case, and the area is less crowded as I suspect, I would think the introduction of kiting at Lac would be very different then it was several years ago. I'm not suggesting that lac be opened without conditions, I just wonder if its possible on a probationary basis with serious consideration for the many different interest involved.

Lastly, why is Cai off limits? (I think its Cai, just upwind of the reef at Lac) If I understand the lay of the land, you can kite just East of Lac where some surf, isnt that in close enough proximity to Lac and Cai that the same issues should be considered?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jenny (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #264) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 10:59 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen,

I don't know what kind of evidence (if any) exists supporting the statement that kiters were disturbing the birds at Lac Bay. However, it's obvious to me that you should not be speaking on the birds' behalf.

"I have never seen a bird injured by a kite nor have I seen them modify their behavior. Until a kite acually attacks a bird I dont see the threat."

Do you know the behavioral repertoire for all of the birds that are associated with kiteboarding sites? I doubt it. Therefore you cannot say that they haven't modified their behavior, because you don't know what their behaviors are. Furthermore, it may be that the birds avoid these sites in general, because of disturbances caused by kiters. Obviously not going to a site would be a modification of their behavior, but since they aren't there, you wouldn't notice this.


"Some people here on Cape Cod have argued "the shadows scare them" -what? I mean come on, if shadows scared them they would be frieghtened by the clouds etc"

Actually there have been behavioral experiments conducted to determine what kinds of shadows elicit a fear response in birds. Round or irregular shapes like clouds do not scare birds, but shapes resembling birds of prey do. I could see how maybe a kite's shadow could look like a bird of prey.

"Birds are funny, they adapt very well, at first they may be threatened but they are qwick to adapt when they realise that kites are not birds of prey and that kites are no threat."

It is true that some birds adapt well, but others have become endangered due to human actions. Some birds need a particular habitat or food source and if they don't get it, they do not adapt, but rather go somewhere else or die off. Lac Bay is a unique habitat on Bonaire. If the birds are driven out, they might go to another island. Bird watching is a big tourist draw to Bonaire. It only makes sense that they would protect the birds as they have protected the reef. Perhaps there are birds that undergo a courtship behavior in Lac Bay, they may be halfway through the sequence when a kite scares them, then they have to react and then start all over, resulting in less matings and then less birds.

I live on Bonaire and I am generally not bothered by kiters and I would like to see them have a place to enjoy their sport, but not at the expense of birds. Perhaps banning the kiters because of birds had something to do with bird population surveys before and after kiting was introduced. I don't really know, but if this was the reason for banning kiting at Lac Bay, then I seriously doubt the environmentalists here will ever allow kiters back.





 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1747) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 1:21 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Tim,
Shouldn't a kiter zooming along the coast be doing so in blue water, not close to shore? The issues have been when a diver tries to surface near the shore, after all.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2064) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 1:37 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I can see nothing new here.

BTrs can't reopen Lac Bay for Kiters that a matter for the government.

If kiters want respect they have to earn it.

I have nothing at all against kiting, but do want sports to intermix safely.

No more from me the clapping is now boring.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #68) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 2:44 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Jenny you may be right, you may be wrong. Personally I think the shape of a kite resembles more of a cloud then a bird of prey IMO, not to be a wise guy, but let me know if you ever see a bird of prey the size of kite, I'll be the first to run away. I would think that part of any strategy that would introduce kites to Lac would also require an analysis and study relative to the impact of kites on the bird population. I do fear that any study would be biased towards the environment though if it wasnt a long term exercise. The key to any good environmental policy is grounded in an objective analysis that doesnt marginalise human interaction; otherwise Bonaire would be off limits to all of us, including divers, windsurfers, kayakers, hikers etc. Its always the new guy that is held up to some standard that completely contradicts existing uses. Unlike a virgin forest or wetland, Lac has had humans in its daily activities for some time, I would be surprised to see any changes to the status quo relative to kiting. In New England the Piping Plovers and Osprey dont seem to flinch at us and as long as as we stay out of their nesting areas the Audubon seems copesthetic. Kiting wont stop birds from reproducing, will it disturb them on occasion, I suspect that kites along with any other activity may make them flinch on occasion, but I dont think they will be disrupted in any crucial way. No doubt some birders will contradict this as they are dedicated protectors and staunch supporters for there environment, I suspect some will object but until a definitive long term study is done, opinions are just that, opinions.

"it is true that some birds adapt well"

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #69) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 3:04 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Brian, how can a kiter earn respect without the opportunity. Man, you are so uptight about the kiting thing, I wish I had you here fighting the windfarm proposed for Nantucket Sound, talk about a disaster. To be clear, I am pro windfarm and alternative energy, I just think its an inapropriate spot; as well as, privatising the resource of Nantucket Sound is just wrong IMO.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Thomas (BonaireTalker - Post #66) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 3:25 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Kiters would be fine if most of'em didn't try to play pinball with divers heads. I've seen some real winners on the south end, all they could do was try and stay in a upright position without any reguard as to where they were headed.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2070) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 3:46 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen the kiters currently have access at Atlantis, if they behave and engender respect by acting safely then maybe if they keep a clean record the authorities may be grant access elsewhere. I have nothing against any other users of the ocean as long they do not endanger the environment or the safety of others.

This been my core point throughout. Uptight me - yeah right.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jenny (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #266) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 4:23 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

"Personally I think the shape of a kite resembles more of a cloud then a bird of prey"

I just looked at some pictures of kiteboarders on the web. I think, from below, a kite could be interpretted by a bird on the ground as a large bird of prey just finishing a down-stroke with its wings.

"IMO, not to be a wise guy, but let me know if you ever see a bird of prey the size of kite, I'll be the first to run away"

Well if you'd be scared, think about the poor birds. Seriously... The birds don't know about kiteboarders, but they do know that threats may come from above. When you look up into the sky, there are little or no clues to provide you with depth perception. So when a bird sees a kite, say 100 ft in the air, it might be the same size on their retina as a bird of prey that is say 5 ft above them. This would induce a fear response, and would ultimately cause the birds to avoid the areas that pose these constant threats.

Can anyone with an online subscription to the Reporter dig up the article about the birds & kiters in Lac Bay? Maybe we can find evidence that there was or was not an official study conducted.

Again, I'm not bothered by kiters. I dive the southern sites all the time and I just go somewhere else if there are kiters around. I sincerely hope a solution is reached that makes everyone happy.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike (BonaireTalker - Post #59) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 4:30 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

One idea for divers being seen, as was mentioned earlier about not wanting to tow a dive flag, is to carry a signal tube with you and on your safety stop, just prior to your surfacing, you can inflate it and have it on a spool that floats above you until you surface. I use this technique when diving in known boat channels in the PNW - works very well, and doesn't require that you have a float attached all through your dive. I've also seen this used in Cozumel by the DM's for drifts so the boat knows when to come by to pick you up. Just my 2cents on being seen!!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #70) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 4:44 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

James nobody is playing pinball with peoples heads thats simply a sarcastic rant, lets keep the conversation constructive.

Brian, I'm sorry you still feel as though kiters endanger divers, its been articulately stated that as a diver you should use some kind of device to alert people that you are there. Even though I think Lac bay is the appropriate venue for kiters what is your suggestion and contribution relative to the discussion about divers and kiters at Atlantis?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2960) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 6:13 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Keep the conversation constructive? Thanks for the laugh. James points out that some kiters are not very skilled, and would engender fear in any sane diver surfacing in their midst. And what does Stephen do? Dismisses James.

Hey, those windmills on Nantucket Sound will be GREAT. Don't be such a NIMBY Stephen. Windmills are the best thing going, and anybody against them is an uptight, closed minded, selfish whiner. Just because you were there first is no reason to stop progress or complain about new things. I'm sure they'll look beautiful in the sunset too! People who install windmills aren't bums, they are Mom's, and Dad's, and kids off college for the summer trying to make a buck. Don't they need to eat too? Heck, I think we should have windmills on top of cars, sounds like a perpetual motion machine to me!

Now THAT is sarcasm.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2072) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 6:15 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen

My message is constant, divers and kiters cannot share the the same water as it is proven on this thread already that kiters are not adopting safe practices. Sorry this is fact already involving incidents with members of this board. Read this again and again and again!!!!!!! Look at the posts from Cynde, Martin and Kelly.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Simon (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #9) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 8:45 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

This and all its common threads have gotten completely off target....I do, as a person who has enjoyed Bonaire, and both dive and kite have a question for anyone who cares to give an opinion.

On a cost vs. benefit basis. Would the economy of Bonaire be improved or hurt by a well structured and regulated kiteboarding industry that attracted both novice and experienced kiteboarders?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kelly (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4861) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 9:21 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Yes, it is extreme, but what if I looked up too late, got whacked in the head, and drowned? That sounds like endangerment to me.

Seb, you are the king of sarcasm and that is why I love you. xo

This kind of "kiting energy" could certainly be better spent on things the island really needs. Books. School supplies. Party favors for a child who has never had a birthday cake. Ask a local what you can do for them, to help THEM. I'm betting kiting access won't be at the top of the list.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2962) on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 10:49 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Sorry about that outburst, apparently in addition to not using machinery for the next 17 hours, I shouldn't be posting either.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2085) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 2:19 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Seb - maybe you need a holiday. Can I recommend a little island close to Venezuela

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #71) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 8:52 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Seb, Seb, Seb, like I said I have no problem with windfarms its just a matter of context. Just becuase its renewable doesnt mean that it's a good idea. There is "green" and then there is "mean green" What would you think about some private entity putting up 180 turbines 420' tall at Lac bay and then selling it to the existing power company at a premium? many scientist think that wind power is not the answer to our power problems; it's inefficient and not sustainable, at least on the water and in the northeast climate.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #72) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 9:11 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Please Kelly, I hear you completely, I never said kiting would save the children. all I said is that it warrants attention because Bonaire could use all the help it can get. What if as a caveat to a proposal to allow kiting at Lac Bay there should be a surcharge that in some part went to the distressed children and the environment? Is that a good idea?

Brian, you really are a good sparring partner. You seem really hung up on the kiter diver issue. May I suggest you contribute to the conversation with a suggestion. Maybe you havnt quite figured out where I'm coming from, I will reiterate, kiting belongs in Lac Bay. Otherwise segregation of kiters and divers is likely a good idea. That or divers need to use measures already established such as a flag sausage etc. Your anti-kite venom is getting pretty transparent, unless you can demonstrate a willingness to work out a solution I think you should just state what I suspect is your opinion about kiting on Bonaire.

Jeff is totally on target, thanks for that contribution, I'm curious how some here handle that question.

(Message edited by steve_t on October 19, 2006)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #512) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 10:06 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Jeff, the last marketing meeting one month ago gave figures. Some 85% of the tourists on Bonaire are divers and-or snorklers, just under 5% are windsurfers - bird watchers, kite surfers etc have % figures far under 5%.
I really like your "a well structured and regulated kiteboarding industry" - I think that says it all
Like Seb posted in the other thread
Below excerpted from the Florida Kitesurfing Association. The IKO has the same regulations.

2. KEEP IT LOW & GO! … to try to avoid lofting or involuntary lifting. In general, DO NOT bring your kite much above 10 to 20 feet (3 to 6 m) from the ground and NEVER to the vertical, within 300 ft. (100 m) of shore or any hard object at most launch areas . Never launch, fly or land upwind and close to the shore or hard objects or stand on the beach for extended with your kite in the air. This careless practice has killed and maimed riders. This practice MAY reduce the chance of lofting but may also promote dragging and serious injury in gusty/strong wind conditions. So, if you are dragged be ready to totally depower instantly using your kite leash and ideally before the dragging starts in the first place. HAZARD AVOIDANCE IS THE KEY along with rapid preemptive, rehearsed actions. Do not fly your kite near vertical or sloped surfaces that can cause uplift and sudden dragging/lofting (walls, buildings, hills, tree lines, etc,). Avoid thermal generating areas as sudden thermal lofting can occur. Launch in the appropriate part of the wind window to avoid “hot” or over-powered downwind launches. Make sure that there are no bystanders within your downwind buffer zone or close by in general.

3. GET OFFSHORE AND STAY THERE. Go offshore at least 300 ft. (100 M) WITHOUT DELAY after launch. Stay beyond 300 ft. until time to come in. If there are substantial waves where you need to put on your board consider body dragging outside the breaker zone first. The fun is offshore, danger to the rider & bystanders is near shore where most of the hard stuff is located.

4. YIELD THE RIGHT OF WAY. Yield the right of way to all others in the water. Riders must yield to others when jumping, to anyone on your right hand side and to launching riders. When in doubt, STOP. Kiteboarders should not jump within a buffer zone of at least two hundred feet (60 m) of others and objects that are downwind. Always be aware of the position of your lines relative to others, line cuts can be severe and tangled lines with another kite, deadly.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #73) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 11:39 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Brigitte, I understand those rules, and endorse them. I would interject that they are well conceived and articulated. The only thing i would point out is the following:

The distance rules and proximity issues relative to hard objects etc. assume that the wind is in a "on shore condition" with exception to divers at Altlantis some of the text is not applicable.

Specificaly, this refers to on-shore conditions-

"GET OFFSHORE AND STAY THERE. Go offshore at least 300 ft. (100 M) WITHOUT DELAY after launch. Stay beyond 300 ft. until time to come in. If there are substantial waves where you need to put on your board consider body dragging outside the breaker zone first. The fun is offshore, danger to the rider & bystanders is near shore where most of the hard stuff is located."

While they dont take into account divers, these words were not written with off-shore winds where the criteria for safety is very different.

Lastly, it bears mentioning that the statements are arguably out of date to some extent. The impetus of those statements reflects the limitations and conditions that existed as little as two years ago. With the advent of BOW kites which are 100% depowerable. The introduction of BOW and SLE kites have revolutionised the industry, now you can let go of the bar and the kite will not power-up and drag you into objects or loft you as stated. I dont mean to say that kites are 100% safe, just that kites have become much safer and instruction is now almost mandatory. I do not mean to marginalise the efforts of the FKA or IKO, its just that nowhere in the referenced document does it talk about off-shore conditions.

As the document relates to Lac Bay, every effort could made to adopt, ammend or otherwise develop rules and procedures that meet or exceed them. If people remember I have proposed that no launching or landing of kites should be done on the beach at Lac, not only is space a premium but every kiteboarder knows that distance is your friend, the shallow waters of Lac Bay are perfect, kiters could easily get out to a safe and reasonable distance and launch and land their kites. This procedure may also mitigate any conflit with shore birds.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2090) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 11:48 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen have no issue with kiting or windsurfing I think they are valid sports.

My issue is that when the sports overlap and cause a safety issue then rules have to put in place and adherence to them monitored. If that fails then the sports have to be separated.

I think that is your current situation and it won't change by your whinging on here.

As I keep having to say if the sport is not managed and promoted in a favorable light then you will not move forward. Blaming divers for failing to use safety floats in the shallows is not going to win you allies - is it?

Running over snorkellors won't either

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #74) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 12:22 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cynde, how much more of this am i going to take before you speak with Brian?

Brian said "I think that is your current situation and it won't change by your whinging on here"

I am a little offended by the continued patronising and marginalising of my opinion. I have tried to keep to your request of "play nice" Brians blatant and continued attempts to drag me into a "tit for tat" are becoming of a four year old. I would like to take a minute to request you speak with him, fair is fair.

Brian I have asked you before, if you would like to CONTRIBUTE to specifics relative to a solution, please do, otherwise please refrain from commenting, your opinion is noted and needs no further explanation. Lastly, its not my situation, its Bonaires.



 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2091) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 1:34 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen I still have no issues with kiting or windsurfing other than the concerns I posted above. I think they are valid sports
and have not said that they are not.

I am speaking about the FACTS relating to this situation, I can't change that and you have been presenting things in a way that does not further your cause.

QGH - see I am playing nice, can I put my dentures back in now?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Patrick T. aka Guido (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1450) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 1:36 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen have you not noticed, that you seem to be by your self. Nobody else is out there helping your cause. The second thread and you still don't get it. Would you like some cheese SIR?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2094) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 1:52 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Patrick

I think has the required product, you know the stuff that is tinned. Cue Monty P.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #75) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 2:16 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Yes Patrick, it's beginning to dawn on me. Sometimes you have to get in the sandbox even if its the only sandbox, regardless if its full of bullies. I wasnt expecting to find any support, I've acually been surprised at the few who have shown the courage to stick their neck out. My intent wasnt to pal around with my buds, I have plenty of that where I live and play, instead I was hoping to hear some of the concerns that many BT'ers have about kiting so they could be addressed in a diplomatic and democratic way, what a joke. I thoght that the biggest issue was with windsurfing, its pretty obvious that the divers who represent 85% of the activity on Bonaire and 99% of the opinions here think they rule the roost. Patrick if you read through the threads I'm sure Mike, Jeff, and Jeroen aswell as some others are also dilusional, what was your point, to invalidate and marginalise kiters. I have a suggestion, why dont you change Bonaire Talk to Bonaire Diver Talk. The apparent lack of windsurfers on this thread has reinforced my initial point that windsurfing is waining and that kiting could do more then any of you to re-establish Lac Bay as a premier water sport destination, but what do you care, your to busy bashing the messenger to hear the message.

I did a bit of research relative to the current economic condition of the island, evidently diving isnt gonna cut it in itself; even at 85% of the tourist industry you cant afford to turn a blind eye. Inorder to preserve your big piece of the pie, you may want look at all options that could bring economic sustainability to the island and its government if you care.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2102) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 2:26 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Patrick

Sorry I missed out Jerry's name. Doh

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #170) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 2:34 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen,
you said:
"I was hoping to hear some of the concerns that many BT'ers have about kiting so they could be addressed in a diplomatic and democratic way"

I have yet to see any concerns addressed in a 'diplomatic' or 'democratic' way, at least by you anyway. In addition to discounting the reports of close calls on the southern end of the island, you seem to be saying that if kiting continues at Atlantis (and I understand that that is not you preferred location) then divers need to make themselves seen to the kiters. You never addressed the question of snorkelers or others who are already clearly visible and who have had close calls.

As to Lac, which is what you intended this thread to be about, you have dismissed concerns that there are safety issues with the windsurfers (almost calling one poster a liar) and your diplomatic response to the bird issue is that birds are 'pretty adaptable' (or something like that, I cannot face reading it again). Please! None of that is constructive or conducive to civilized debate.

And it's all a moot point anyway. Kiting has been banned. Given that Lac is a protected RAMSAR wetlands site, I think it is extremely unlikely that anyone (with the possible exception of a few less than honest politicians) is going to get excited about any sort of increased use at Lac. Take a look at the thread regarding a development project in that area which has been, thankfully stopped (at least temporarily). And even if it is, take your own rules on Nantucket--you have to stay 200 meters away from nesting sites--that does not give you a whole lot of room to move in Lac.

My advice to kiters is to obey your own rules at Atlantis. Go straight out, stay out of the shallows. Give the right of way to anyone else. I am truly sorry for you and members of your sport that this is not the ideal location. But it's better than nothing.

Have a nice day :-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Peters (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #106) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 2:55 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Very interesting discussion.

Steven, you seem to create most of your own problems.

Take for example your dismissal of the bird issue because you don't think a kite or its shadow looks like a bird of prey. I own birds and I know for a fact that they can all react in irrational ways you and I can't even begin to understand. Here's an example. Even though my birds have been living in the same house for their entire lives of 12 years they are still freaked out by shadows in the living room from time to time. Nothing has changed, it's the same furniture and lighting that has been there their entire lives. Nothing bad has ever happened to them at any time that they've thought they saw "something" so you would think after awhile they would adapt and ignore it.

Add to that the fact that these are domesticated parrots that have been hand raised by humans since birth not wild animals that have had to fight for their survival every day of their lives. The point that I'm making is that it doesn't matter what YOU, or me, any human for that matter, thinks your kite or its shadow looks like. It matters what the nesting birds think it looks like. The cold hard fact here is that the environmentalists, and if you're truly one of them you know this already, will err on the side of caution because in their opinion kiting can go somewhere else much more easily than it is to rebuild a bird population once it has been become endangered. Therefore Stephen, short of a long term study that definitively proves that kiting will not disturb the birds you are fighting a battle you can not win. Sorry Stephen, those are the cards. So unless someone wants to pony up the money for the study and is prepared to wait a few years for an outcome that may or may not be in their favor kiting in Lac Bay appears to be a dead issue. Flog on if you must but I think your chances for success are not good and will only use up resources that could be put to better use elsewhere.

As for kiting being an economic boon for the island, maybe, maybe not. Again another study is needed. Or maybe it's already been done and the results were not in your favor. One thing you can be sure of Stephen, if there's enough money to be made someone will find a way to set up shop and exploit it.

One problem I can see with kiting is the median age of the people involved. Kiting and windsurfing tend to be a sport enjoyed by younger people. It's very physical. Before you even say it, I know, 'it's gotten so much easier in the past few years' and 'you don't need to be an athlete to enjoy it'. Say what you want but in time invariably you'll go from wanting to be the guy racing down the beach with his hair on fire to being happy to watch some other guy race down the beach with his hair on fire. It happens to everybody eventually. It called getting older. The body can only tolerate it for so long before risk of serious injury becomes too great. Yes I know there are exception to the rule, but they are just that, exceptions.

Scuba diving is a more stable business model because it appeals to a much wider age demographic and is more heavily weighted in favor of the middle age groups. This is probably due to them having more disposable cash because if they have kids they're grown up or at least old enough to travel with. They also have more likely reached a point in their life where they are willing to spend more money to have certain expectations met. Example, my son who is 20 would have no problem sleeping outside in a tent if it were free and that's what he had to do so he could afford to go diving on Bonaire with the money he has available. My wife and I would not, we'd put off the trip until we could afford to stay in a place that meets the level of comfort and services that we want while on vacation. He is a lot less likely to go out and spend $100 on dinner and drinks whereas my wife and I are.

Also look at where kiting and wind surfing are in relation to diving on the island. I'm sorry but they are really just side line activities by comparison. I'm not trying to diminish what the locals have done in competition by any means. But reality from a business perspective is that kiting and windsurfing only generate a tiny fraction of the revenue that diving does. This is very easy to see in the fact that every hotel either has its own dive shop or is affiliated with one in some way or another. How many kiting and windsurfing shops are there on the island?

Now to be fair I also have to agree with you that there are divers, and a few people here, that think the world should never change and that because they came first nobody should intrude. There's also a fair amount of hypocrisy that goes on here as well. Take for example that in order to post about a crime on Bonaire here you first have to provide a copy of a police report to a moderator. Even then there will still be the usual "blame it on the victim for not taking enough precautions" crowd, and the "crime is much worse elsewhere" crowd that will down play every aspect they can. They say it because damage could be caused to local businesses. OTOH hand however if five people from this forum have totally unconfirmed incidents where from their perspective they think they had a close call, (Remember that a bad judge of distance may think the kiter is closer than they really are.) the situation is unacceptable and something must be done. The irony is almost poetic.

I was talking with a resident and local business owner last week while I was on the island and he had an interesting suggestion. Give the kiters 5 dive sites for two years. No divers allowed and kiters have this and only this area open to them. After two years move the area to a different 5 dive sites. I liked his thought process on it.

***Divers wouldn't have to worry about dragging flags or launching SMB's and the Bonaire style of diving they love so much and traveled so far for would be preserved.

***Kiters would have a dedicated area where they wouldn't have to worry about watching out for divers and that would be big enough so areas for different skill levels could be set up.

***Wildsurfers will have their dedicated area with the same benefits the other two groups enjoy.

***Where kiters don't have much effect below five feet it would give the main reef and its marine life a chance to have a break from the constant traffic of divers.




So the summary of this seems to be.

>>Chances of ever getting back into Lac Bay are between slim and none.

>>Going on and on about it isn't winning you any friends.

>>Since kiting will be done on the west side for at least for the foreseeable future certain safety procedures need to be worked out such as, no kiting unless there's a recovery boat in operation to avoid the chance of being taken too far offshore for example. That would have to be worked out between the government and the kite operators by whatever legislative or political process the island has for this.

>>Divers and kiters would have to respect the boundaries of the kiting area. No shooting up the coast because the wind is right and it's a quicker way home. No sneaking into the area underwater from a neighboring dive site.

Who knows, maybe the sites will be better diving after they've had a rest for a couple of years. This could even serve as a much needed sanctuary for animals that want to be left alone. I'm willing to bet that's why the Goliath Grouper that was on the Hilma Hooker earlier this year moved on. Open circuit scuba is noisy to animals that don't blow bubbles so why would one want to stick around up with 100 divers a day in its face every day of the week? Yes, it would suck to have the Hilma off limts for two years. But wouldn't it be cool to come back and find several large fish had taken up residence on the wreck during that time?

Anyway, that's my .02 worth.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kelly (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4874) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 4:29 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Honestly, I don't know how much more visible I could have been at Margate Bay. Has anyone SEEN my dive skin?? It's visible to passing aircraft. I also have neon green on my snorkel and I was snorkeling... NOT diving.

I'm certainly not harping on this subject, but seriously, what else would you suggest I should have done, Stephen?

And I am personally insulted about the disparaging remarks you are making about BTers. Yes, we are a close knit community, that is what makes Bonaire Talk so special. Have you heard of our Bonaire Talk Mini-Meets? These are people who are PERSONALLY involved in one another's lives ! I was with Cynde in Puerto Rico when her mother was dying for christ sake. We had a BT shower for Eileen when she was pregnant, we support one another through job changes, babies, cancer scares (or cancer realities), surgeries --- we are close, get over that. No one is ganging up on you... you are your own worst enemy here I'm afraid. I don't know many of us that are not willing to state our own opinions, even it goes against the grain. Please don't be so negative. Your argument is getting lost in your sarcastic comments.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #76) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 4:37 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Alex, firstly, my sense of a diplomatic converstion may be a bit more colorful then yours, all I did was challenge somebody elses account. Secondly, I never said kiting doesnt come with some risk, for that matter none of the activities being talked about are "safe", all I was putting fourth was that measure could be taken to mitigate the conflicts, several suggestions were made. thirdly, I never said that kiting or windsurfing could ever dominate the tourist industry, simply diversify. As to the demographicv curve let me suggest you are incorrect, at the risk of devulging too much personel info, I'm 43yrs old, I have a wife and two kids. If I spend 5k on a trip to Bonaire to pursue kiting, snorkeling, and diving my money should be as welcomed as anyones. Lastly, RAMSAR wetland condition is not unique, Lac could easily support a buffer that is consistent with good environmental practice.

Jim, I never dismissed the birds, I simply said a long term study should be done, please dont put words in my mouth, I'm having enough trouble, thank you. As to the demographic issue I think you are confused. As I stated before I'm a middle aged guy with a family, all my friends who kite are well over 30, and a majority of them including my roomates on the Cape are in their mid forties, and two over 50. We were all windsurfers that have gone over to kiting. Dont let the kite marketing machine fool you, just as windsurfing and diving, these activities require considerable resources. You are way off on this one. To even put the potential of kiting in relation to windsurfing is another mistake, kiting is growing exponentially, windsurfing is dieing exponentially. My point speaks to yours, expolitation and resource is a fine line; I'd like to see kiting developed responsibly so that its net effect on the economy is something appreciated. In the end I may be responsible for creating my own problems however, Bonaires problems existed well before I ever got involved. Nobody here has even considered what the potential of kiting could be, and that resources from it would ultimately go towards the island, what have you done lately?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kelly (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4879) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 4:47 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

PS. Mods, sorry about the trash mouth... got carried away. Will do better next time. xo

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #171) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 6:18 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, you said:
"Alex, firstly, my sense of a diplomatic converstion [sic] may be a bit more colorful then yours, all I did was challenge somebody elses [sic] account. Secondly, I never said kiting doesnt [sic] come with some risk, for that matter none of the activities being talked about are "safe", all I was putting fourth was that measure could be taken to mitigate the conflicts, several suggestions were made. thirdly, I never said that kiting or windsurfing could ever dominate the tourist industry, simply diversify. As to the demographicv [sic] curve let me suggest you are incorrect, at the risk of devulging [sic] too much personel [sic] info, I'm 43yrs old, I have a wife and two kids. If I spend 5k on a trip to Bonaire to pursue kiting, snorkeling, and diving my money should be as welcomed as anyones. Lastly, RAMSAR wetland condition is not unique, Lac could easily support a buffer that is consistent with good environmental practice. "

Um, I never said that you said :-) kiting was safe, and I never said anything at all about the tourist industry or demographics and I think I was the one who put forth a suggestion--kiters should learn to use Atlantis safely and stay offshore at other sites.

And some 'environmentalists' (I think you said you were one?) take the RAMSAR treaty seriously and think it is darn special that Bonaire has 5 sites that are recognized as being of special significance. Sadly, such places become more 'unique' every day.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #77) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 7:06 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Sorry Alex, I was confused, it was Jim whos comments about demographics I was referring. Also I would like to say Jim made some good observations and I appreciate the civility in which it was presented, cudos to you sir, even if I dont agree with everything you said it was a well articulated and constructive comment :^)

A long term study would require kiters in Lac Bay, at least for the duration of the study, then the problem would be rolling back the ban after the obvious success of the financial return.

Which was it anyway, was the ban a result of the "safety issue" or the environment? I'm not sure the environmental issue is really an issue at all, at least as it relates to the ban, and that argument is full of suposition and hypotheticals, a study is what is needed.

Hypothetically, what if somebody took one of ponds associated with the salt works, flushed it, and made a kiter only lagoon? it might sound like a far fetched idea, but its certainly doable....

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #172) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 9:49 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen,

Thank you for your apology.

Your confusion, I have to say, indicates what others have said before me: you do not seem to be paying attention to what people are saying here, not to mention not trying to address their questions and concerns.

It is my understanding that environmental and safety concerns were the primary reasons for banning kiting from Lac, but perhaps others who followed the situation more closely than I could give you more details. However, I think both arguments against kiting in Lac have been covered here without, for me anyway, adequate arguments for kiting not being a threat to the environment or to windsurfers, snorkerlers, kayakers, kids playing in the water, etc.

As for using one of the salt ponds...yes, I think it is far-fetched. The salt ponds include the Pekelmeer Flamingo Reserve, also a RAMSAR site, not to mention the income the island gets from salt production. But I'm sure you could ask Cargill what they think.

Again, I am not for banning kiting; I am for making it safe for people and for the environment. I appreciate that Atlantis is not ideal, but I think it may be the best deal the kiters are going to get here. And, again, I would advise that kiters find a way to make that site work so that the situation is as safe as possible for kiters and non-kiters alike. If not, kiters may well find they are left with no place at all on Bonaire, and I think that would be a shame...

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde (Moderator) (Moderator - Post #344) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 9:54 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

One thing I am always reminded of is that Bonaire is not "our" island. Bonaire belongs to the locals, the natives. We are mere tourists to where they were born, live, or where they have made their home. We have our ideas in regard to what we would like to see happen, change, or take place. Also, Bonaire Talk has absolutely no power whatsoever to make anything happen in regard to change on the island like getting kiting back into Lac Bay. All Bonaire Talk has the ability to is to one of two things:

1. Provide productive and positive dialogue to connect parties that may possibly work together to have a positive effect on Bonaire, or the world around us.
2. Aggravate each other.

Stephen, if you truly want to help the future of kiting on Bonaire, I suggest you get your head together with the kiters you know on Bonaire and form a committee to meet with officials on Bonaire and get a dialogue going to make it happen (and you don't have to be physically on Bonaire to help them). If the kiters/surfers have asked you to post for them, I would encourage them to post themselves. But again, BT has no political power. Most people on Bonaire either love BT or don't like us so much....I'd rather have it amicable all the way around but it's difficult to please all the people all the time.

Again, one of the best posts has been by Jeroen, where he invited divers to stop and chat with the kiters when they are at Atlantis. Open invite. Thank you.

I actually had time a few days ago to do a search, and found a thread from 2001, on this very topic Kiting at Lac Bay

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Peters (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #108) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 9:46 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen,

Feel free to disagree with me all you want. No problem with that at all. I've read your opinions and I think they're wrong.

Despite what you've said I think that you have indeed dismissed the bird issue Stephen. I say that because you don't seem willing to admit or discuss the realities of the situation. In order to get kites on the Bay you need to do a study that proves that kiting does not disturb the birds in the area. In order to do the study you have to have kites on the bay. There's the Catch 22 that will stop you dead in your tracks. You also don't seem willing to admit the fact that an honest study may in fact find against you either. Personally I think you're never going to get kiting back into Lac Bay and that you are just going to have to learn to live with that.

I fail to see what the big deal is anyway. You list all kinds of constraints you're willing to live with in order to get back into Lac Bay but don't seem willing to accept the use of a recovery boat at Atlantis. It seems to me that for someone learning to kiteboard it would be safer if the wind were to drag them toward water rather than land. If you fall in the water you have a PFD on, or should, so there shouldn't be a big problem. If you get dragged up the beach you're going to get torn to shreds. I know, a kite can be depowered. Guess what, beginners don't always do what they're supposed to do. Sometimes they freeze. That's when the accidents start. Better to have them dragged through the water until the recovery boat can get them than it is to have them end up in the parking lot.

I also think you over estimate the financial strength of kiting as an industry and its long term sustainable growth potential. Sure kiting is expanding exponentially, now. Windsurfing, skateboarding (several times), rollerblading, etc, etc, etc all followed the same growth curve. Look where they are today. All of those sports/activities still exist but they have passed their peak in terms of industry growth. They have resurgences in popularity but they will never become the industry that diving is. And for Bonaire, that's where the big money lies. You need to get used to the fact that kiting is just the next fad to come along down the pike. I predict that kiting will follow the same growth path that windsurfing did. Time will tell.


Good luck to you Stephen. I just don't see things happening the way that you do.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #78) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 9:47 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Alex, are you serious? I pay too much attention to this thread, I simply confused your post with the one below, nothing more. How have i not tried to address peoples concerns, I have made several suggestions that are tangible and realistic, i will share these once again:

1. no kiting at Atlantis

2. creation of a zone in Lac Bay and defined by small bouys as exist now at the reef

3. kiters need to land and lanch at the zone with assitance.

4. possibly allowed for a probationary period.

5. Specific hours such as after 3:00pm only on a probationary basis

6. Limit the amount of kiters.

7. require reasonable sir charge at the vendor areas inwhich kiters get assist from local kite caddys, and shaded storage.

8. require certification for kiters.

9. provide certification through vendors and a rider review.

10. Safe lessons, or no lessons.

11. visitors should ride only out of vendor areas.

12. require kite leashes.

13. review rules and sign a waiver.

14. Kites, BOW or SLE, these are 100% depowerable kites, much, much safer then traditional c-kites, both for the kiter and others around them.

How is it you have come to the conclusion that kites are bad for the environment, I have not been convinced by the speculative and arguably biased hersay that some have put out there, if you have something other then the subjective accounts of the few proponents of their argument I would be very interested. I challenge anyone to be open minded and to hold off on that position until a qualified and independent review has been done. I hope what I'm about to say doesnt come off as diver bashing, I'm simply stating what I perceive as a simple observation. I would also like to make clear I have done a bit of diving myself and enjoy it very much, that said I submit to you; Diving is way worse for the environment then any kite, with acception of the hypothetical bird argument. Diving and its support require lots of fuel, both in the support boats and the air compression associated. The 85% of the market share of activity on Bonaire also suggest to me that divers, not kiters are intruding on areas that may or may not be disturbed by there presence. Also driving around from yellow rock to yellow rock is also contributing to global warming and polutants associated. How can many of you even support this "bad for the environment argument" Last I checked my kite goes all day without a drop of fuel, no sound, only a shadow. Also my presence on the surface is minimal in comparison to "in water activity", again as somebody pointed out our market share is less then 5% of activity on the island and we are very limited to our areas. I find the argument relative to the environment completely hypocritical from divers. As far as the Cargil idea, I again think the biggest impact on the environment is the possibility of a conflct with birds, otherwise I would argue that kiting is about as easy on the environment as a human activity can be. It could be argued that Bonaires environment would be much better off if diving was banned. Of course I am not saying it should be, economic interest are important also, especially as it relates to the fragile and tenutive situation that surrounds the government and infrastructure of the island.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde (Moderator) (Moderator - Post #345) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 10:19 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen,


quote:

I challenge anyone to be open minded and to hold off on that position until a qualified and independent review has been done.




Please take the time and do some research into why kiting was banned at Lac in the first place. Also please re-read Alex's Post #170) on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 2:34 pm. Also, please re-read my last post. I don't think you are listening...or should I say reading what people are saying.

My only last thought this morning (before I go off to my paying job, and I won't have time to look here again till I get home from my paying job) is this.

I'm not sure what your expectations were when you began your posts this last time around. Possibly that you might gather a number of members to support your effort and start a movement toward your effort? I'm not really sure. It's obvious at this point that this is not going to happen, so may I suggest that again, please re-read Alex's post above, check into those organizations that are protecting that area, and get your head together with the kiting organizations on Bonaire to keep it alive and make it safer for everyone.

I feel like I'm hitting my head against a brick wall here.

OK, One more last thought. I always like to think of threads like this as "in room cocktail parties" and how they would go if we were all in the same room and this conversation were actually happening. How many of the people on this thread would still be left in the room? (I'm only still here because I'm one of the hosts' ;-).

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #79) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 10:23 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cynde I dont follow the "dead in your tracks argument" if I understand what you are saying its the only reasonable way to come to conclusions that ould support your contentions. If I follow your catch 22, I would suspect our justice system in the US would be far worse, maybe you have heard this "innocent until proven guilty" I am perfectly able to live with the results of a study if it was independent, and was understood from the onset that any activity is in conflict with the environment. That being said it is incumbent that a degree of disruption is tolerable. Be careful here, this argument also supports the continued diving, snorkeling, bird watching, kayaking and other industries that Bonaire needs to survive as a "green" island.

As to the recovery boat issue, yes a good sea worthy craft with a qualified skipper would make kiting safer at Atlantis. I'm not that thrilled with the gas use though. I agree that newcomers can be unpredictable, maybe all lessons should occur at Atlantis, and that some local certification may be required to access Lac. This kind of thing worked well in the ski industry relative to snowboarding where in the beginning a test was required to access the mountain. I dont have a crystal ball about the future growth of kiteboarding I will however share a couple observations. Kitesurfers on Cape Cod are close to 3:1 to windsurfers and growing, kiters are well ahead in the market share in this region. Also, the advent of these BOW kites I refer to have again contributed to rapid growth. Lastly, windsurfing isnt even holding its own, its a shrinking market share and is all to obvious if your in the industry. The bottom line here is that if I can use the Alpine ski industry as an example, you will not find a single person in the industry that will discount the contribution that snowboarding has made to the industry, infact most will outright say it saved their sport. Why people use the divisive argument that its kiting vs diving, I'm not sure anyone including me has ever suggested that kiting will ever equal the revenue potential of diving, and that the interest are at odds. I have simply said that kiteboarding could contribute to economic development of the island. Why do you or anyone feel it is necassary to continue with this position, its not applicable and ultimately marginalises the opportunity for Bonaire to see any other interest, or is that where you and the others are coming from, whos interest is in a statement like that?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #80) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 10:29 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cynde, respectfully speaking, if your think you head hurts I wish you try mine on. My expectations were simply to test the waters, BT has given me more of an opportunity to not only test the waters but to understand the many interest involved. dare say it has also been a good mental workout, parsing the interest and developing a well understood position has been a huge benefit for me. A cocktail party? now thats the best idea yet!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kelly (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4884) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 11:12 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cynde, I would still be in the room just because I like to watch train wrecks. lol.

Seriously, Stephen, I think we have all had enough. Your posts are just tiresome and redundant at this point and frankly, I just skip through them and don't even read them in their entirety.

It might be time to give up the ship.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kelly (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4887) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 11:26 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

The waters have been tested. The cocktail shrimp has been eaten. I believe the party is over.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Patrick T. aka Guido (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1454) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 11:42 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

BUT there is still some CHEESE left if you need it.LOL :-):-):-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #173) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 11:46 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen,

I think you meant to address your post #79 to Jim Peters, not Cynde...

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Peters (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #110) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 3:03 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Yes Alex, he meant to address that to me.

Stephen here are the cards you (kiteboarders) are holding.

* You were allowed in Lac Bay.

* You were apparently banned from Lac bay because of safety and environmental concerns.

* You are now trying to force your way back in.

* You are not going to be able to that unless you can prove the reasons you were banned no longer exist.

* Windsurfers and environmentalists will fight you tooth and nail and they have the status quo in their favor.

* Claims of economic gain mean nothing unless you can produce market studies that back you up with cold hard numbers.

* You have Atlantis to fly at which means the government and people that don't want you back in Lac Bay are probably not going to be too sympathetic to your case unless you can prove there is some over riding benefit in them doing so, like money.

Stephen, I'll give you a piece of advice, don't waste too much time with trying to show how scuba activities are less environmentally friendly than kiting. Bonaire has found out a long time ago that scuba diving and eco-tourism are a sustainable revenue with acceptable environmental impacts. YOU are the outsider at least one strike against you already and will not get very much resect from the powers that be if you try using that argument.

I've also left out the social stigma that comes with some groups. There may be other reasons involved as to why Bonaire doesn't actively try to expand kiting. Maybe they don't want to encourage the type of people the sport attracts. There's a reason people are glad Bonaire isn't another Aruba. You might want to give that some thought Stephen.

One thing that you really need to get straight here is that I don't care one way or the other how this turns out. It doesn't matter whether I support or condemn any of the reasons you are being banned from Lac Bay or not. These are not my arguments and you don't have to try and win any battles with me. Lets face it, if kiting were allowed in Lac Bay I wouldn't have to worry about being hit by a kiter upon surfacing from a dive. That would make it in my interest to try and get you out of Atlantis and back in Lac Bay wouldn't it? I merely point out to you that these ARE arguments that YOU are going to have to overcome with the people that DON'T want you back there.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vince DePietro (Bellevue Condos # 9) (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #485) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 5:31 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cynde...before this party completely breaks up, could you get me a Johnny Walker Black (a double) on the rocks please. Time for a night dive!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #81) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 7:27 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hey bartender, another round please.... Jim, I think what you outlined is valid, and possible. I just got back from the beach, got a great session on my 9m, windy as a mofo, and then some. Great to be out riding with my friends and windsurfing brethren. They be on the way to Bonaire shortly for a little freestyle, wheres the love....one for the road please....

yes us kitesurfers are such a bad lot, you wouldnt want us around, we are just such bad new's, we'd suck the fun right outta ya!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Baby Donkey (BonaireTalker - Post #16) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 10:01 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Where's Wally and who stole his beer?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Baby Donkey (BonaireTalker - Post #17) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 10:02 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Where's Wally and who stole his beer?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Baby Donkey (BonaireTalker - Post #18) on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 10:03 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

oops!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2116) on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 4:55 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Just popped in to straighten the chairs ready for the next thread. Someone left some fairly ripe socks behind - have left them outside by the door.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By WaldoDonkey (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #8) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 11:20 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Apparently Wally was off tormenting some Redfish on Friday (being a clairvoyant donkey and all I know things but I do know what he would say:

Somebody STOLE a beer from his truck in December 2003 and he is in practically livid about it (still).

I also happen to know who done the deed....and just the sound of her name makes me flap my ears.

(off to make some donkey wind...that will make your eyes water and your kite droop)



 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #82) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 11:49 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

after a hell of a hangover and a few lazy days, back to topic:

found this, from a previous thread by Jack Chalk-Habitat-STINAPA-BONHATA.

I think it smells like fish,

"As most of you know, I rarely speak up unless it has to do with correcting some facts. I too support the kiters and their right to enjoy their sport and also love to watch them. When I ride my Harley on Saturdays I usually go down south and usually stop to watch them for awhile.

Just to clear up one point...it was NOT STINAPA that banned the kiters from Lac...it was the government based on input by some people on the island. STINAPA was only charged with enforcing the ban. STINAPA actually tried to work out a compromise to enable the kiters to stay in Lac and utilize it at specific times recommended by the kiters themselves, but to no avail.

I see STINAPA being made the bad guy for many rules and regulations in regards to the environment and the marine park on the island. While many of the rules and regulations STINAPA does RECOMMEND, there are also many that STINAPA does NOT RECOMMEND and actually advise against...however they are passed none the less...it is the government and only the government that may put the rules and regulations into place and/or remove or change them...all STINAPA can do is try to enforce them equally for all."


"it was the government based on input by some people on the island"


I think that says it all. Jack would likely have said it was as a result of environmental reasons. So for the record I think the ban is for protecting the interest of some individuals at Lac Bay. They know who they are and I think I do to. I understand why you did it but have you re-considered it lately?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde (Moderator) (Moderator - Post #346) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 12:32 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, welcome back...cocktail party is over. Can you please post the link you got Jack's post from?

Oh, and the Government of Bonaire, does not read BT, so I don't think they could answer your question. Your best bet is to write or email them directly:-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2162) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 1:42 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen

Jim Peters summed up the situation very well. I don't see why you continue whinging on. Why don't YOU do some research; rather than put YOUR problems on us to resolve.

It ain't going to happen, find some sponsors maybe the other kiters could help you, get some support.

I think you are still way off the may and worsening your case.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2163) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 2:03 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Sorry Stephen I have had a really hard day getting ready for big meeting tomorrow.

My major points stand but I was a little too aggressive.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #83) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 6:26 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Heres the link Cynde,

http://www.oldbonairetalk.com/cgi-local/bbs/show.cgi?tpc=2488&post=292225#POST292225

It came from the original thread.

I'm not sure how I'm going to worsen my cause, what could be worse then 'off shore' kiting?

Brian, goodluck with your meeting tomorrow...

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #84) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 6:27 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

woops sorry, i was a little quick on the trigger, I'll look some more....

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3631) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 6:42 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, allow me, I meant to post this link earlier anyway: http://www.oldbonairetalk.com/cgi-local/bbs/show.cgi?tpc=2488&post=348927#POST348927

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #85) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 6:45 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you... ;^)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #86) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 6:53 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

It seems we have a mystery.... or not.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3632) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 8:23 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

All, because I am ignorant of what Kiteboarding and it's participants are about, I have been researching this past week. While there are many sources of information, I ended up focusing primarily on the message board for the Florida Kiteboarding Association. I discovered that, like scuba divers, boarders are a diverse group made up of people of many occupations. That for the most part they are dedicated to practicing their sport in a safe and responsible manner. Kiteboarders are as willing and able to spend money for quality training, equipment and travel as scuba divers. I also discovered that they have hearts, attempt to reunite lost gear (expensive) to it's rightful owner, come to the aid of their fallen comrades have even rescued people other than their fellow Kiteboarders. Kind of like the members that make up this board.

Check it out at: http://www.fksa.org/ Oh yeah, if you want to learn a bit about accidents/injury or death statistics, Rick Iossi has done a commendable job at collecting information.

Today I focused on reading past issues of The Bonaire Reporter. I read many well written letters both pro and con. I have not found (so far) any reports in the Reporter of any bystander being injured by a boarder on Bonaire.

I was buzzed last October by what I feel was a "newbie" boarder at Atlantis. http://www.oldbonairetalk.com/cgi-local/bbs/show.cgi?tpc=2488&post=290887#POST290887 and http://www.oldbonairetalk.com/cgi-local/bbs/show.cgi?tpc=2488&post=290942#POST290942 As upset as I was at that time, I accept my part of the blame as I did not have a sausage or hold up a fin. Also, in hindsight, as close to the ironstone shoreline that he went before turning, I think he was in worse danger (grounding) than I.

As far as the boarders being banned from Lac Bay for environmental reasons, if that is based on fact, I feel windsurfers and kayakers should be banned as well. Whether cutting through seagrasses or disrupting the nesting areas merely by being there all users of the bay impact Mother Nature to some degree. Then again, don't divers, especially "newbies", maybe even wannabe photographers that have not yet mastered buoyancy control, negatively impact the corrals, sponges, etc., when they bounce off the bottom? How are we sure we don't step on and kill, bristleworms, brittlestars, etc. when we make our shore entries? By the amount of birds that were flying around Atlantis last fall when I had my close call, I do not feel our feathered friends were too intimidated by the kites.

Until Kiteboarders are allowed back at Lac Bay and I hope they are, I feel it would be better for all if the Kiteboard Operators and Dive Operators could work together to set up channels which boarders could use to launch/land at sites which divers frequent (Understand these channels would have to be wide.)or set aside sites for Kiteboarding activities only. Changing these "reserved" locations periodically would seem fair to all. Oh yeah, these sites would have to have accessible shorelines for both the participants and rescue/chase boats, not merely sites that most other people do not want to use.

My rant is over. Play nice please.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde (Moderator) (Moderator - Post #347) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 8:37 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, why not encourage your friends who are on Bonaire now, to post a nice trip report on BT, under this topic when they get back. It is certainly welcome and I'm sure everyone would enjoy the report as well as pictures. It might just broaden everyone's perspective.

Tom, nicely done:-) I only had time to sit in on the cocktail party here last week:-( Thanks for taking the time to do a little research:-) As I've said before, it's big here in So Cal, but they do it from shore but have to stay well clear of the surf zone.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #87) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 9:36 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Tom, thanks for the encouraging words, my friends will be windsurfing, I think they leave next week. I wish I was going.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ann Phelan - www.bonairecaribbean.com (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2431) on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 9:18 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Steve, Who is coming during low season? If they are friends of yours perhaps I know them and can be on the lookout to say hi...strange time of year to leave Cape Cod's winds for our no wind..awell, they can dive and do other fun stuff..

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cyn (GH) (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #19900) on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 9:42 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, please encourage them to write a trip report on their windsurfing trip then:-) With pictures..we LOVE pictures:-)

Ann, you missed the webcam thread on Sunday...we all want to know what kind of board and sail you have so we can recognize you on the windsurf cam. Someone suggested you hang a BT flag off the sail, but I think NOT...lol ;-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ann Phelan - www.bonairecaribbean.com (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2432) on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 9:49 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cynde, there is no wind lately so you will not see me sail much and I never sail in front of the cam..it's too close to shore..haaaa...it's hard to actually capture someone's image on the cam I think unless they stand in the shallows in front of the shop.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #88) on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 9:57 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hey Ann, of course you know'em, its Freestyle Fred and some of like minded willy skippers, I dont know all there names but I think one is named Chris. They are the regulars from Kalmus. There going over to Elvis's place, I hope they may open up a discussion about kiting, they are well aquianted with or group of kite kooks, hopefully they wont trash us while on the island, god forbid we share two beaches...lol.

How do you get pics up?, image tag like this [img]*.jpg[img]

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3633) on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 10:04 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen, see: http://www.oldbonairetalk.com/cgi-local/bbs/discus.cgi?pg=formatting#images

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Johnson (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #1) on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 2:52 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Wow, too many post to take in all the details but over and over it seems the main point is being missed. The main point I get out of Stephen's post is that Lac Bay would be the safest place to kite and if it was allowed there the majority of the divers and snorkelers would never even see a kite on Bonaire unless they went to Lac Bay to watch the amazing tricks and colorful kites from the beach. I have been to Bonaire with my wife many times before kids and now we will be back for our 3rd trip with kids in Feb. Our oldest will turn 8 while in Bonaire and started windsurfing this summer in Minnesota. He loves it and I can't think of a better place than Bonaire for kids and people learning to windsurf. Kiting is growing big time in Minnesota and there is now much more growth and excitement for kiting than windsurfing. The access for kiters is much less than windsurfers in Minnesota and the kiters tend to drive farther for larger areas of open water and less crowded shore lines. I am still mainly a windsurfer but own one kite for winter use on the lakes in the snow. I think a lot of the problems with kiting is between windsurfers and kiters, not much different than when snowboarding was new and skiers did not like snowboarders. I think the snowboarders and skiers have learned to co-exist and in the future the kiters and windsurfers will also. It has already made much progress in Minnesota. Most windsurfers are very nervous about being anywhere close to a kiter until they understand each other better. I am surprised that the windsurfing operations at Lac Bay have not commented on this issue. I would guess they are the main reason kiting is not allowed at Lac Bay and forcing the kiters to go to the other side of the island and get in the way of divers who may be the least understanding of this new sport.

The main reason I come to Bonaire is for the diving. The windsurfing for me is a great bonus. For my wife and kids Bonaire is the best place in the world for their windsurfing fun. There is no other island I have found or can afford that offers such a high level of diving and windsurfing quality on the same island. As my kids get older I am sure it will be hard to keep them from switching from windsurfing to kiting. Most of the younger generation seems to have moved from skiing to snowboarding and likewise it looks like Kiting will be way more dominant than windsurfing is now. Kiting does need much more space and there are more safety issues than windsurfing but a solution in Bonaire I am sure is possible and I think as the demand from wind sport travelers increases it will happen. Many windsurfers are moving to kiting or at least doing both. For me being able to kite safely in Bonaire would be a great advantage and would be more exciting than windsurfing in Bonaire. I have been windsurfing for 22 or more years now and never plan to give it up nor diving. They are both life long sports that do not seem to have an age limit.

On a side note my son told me he was worried that Bonaire did not have any birthday cakes. Any suggestions on where to get a birthday cake.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2275) on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 3:11 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

The point is that the Government has banned Kiting in Lac Bay. You will the environmental points and safety raised above. If the kiters can address these issues then maybe they should lobby for support for the government to overturn the ban.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2276) on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 3:12 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Steve welcome to BT

Annette's Last Bite bakery make fantastic birthday cakes

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2284) on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 3:34 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Word Hiccup - that should read

The point is that the Government has banned Kiting in Lac Bay. You will see the environmental points and safety issues raised above. If the kiters can address these areas then maybe they can lobby for support for the government to overturn the ban.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #89) on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 6:01 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Right on Steve, you are correct. Dont mind Brian, hes just like that...lol. Brian, after much debate and and a little poking around its pretty obvious the only reason kiting is banned is because Elvis and Ernest, mostly Elvis, are protecting their interest in maintaining a windsurfing stronghold for there young talent on Bonaire. Kiting was banned no more for environmental reason as it was for safety. Even Jack Chalk has commented in STINAPAS attempts to keep kiting in Lac. I know you have heard this before Brian, your argument as well as many here who agree is hersay, the real reason is that Elvis doesnt want it; of course safety was used as an excuse, but still its just an excuse. Steve, have a great trip, I hope in the future we and our kids get the chance to get in Lac for a spectacular day of kiting. When your there please take a minute to inquire and share your opinion; look at my list of suggestions that could be implemented to make kiting safer, they may be good talking points in a constructive conversation, please let us know how your trip was and if you had any discussions about kiting, be safe, have fun.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2289) on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 6:41 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen

If you want to overcome the ban then the kiters need to remove the obstacles that people are using to keep you out.

This is not hearsay, just the way that things work.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3645) on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 7:46 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Brian, I believe Roan and Stephan have addressed most of the "obstacles" in their safety/regulations page. Please see: http://kiteboardingbonaire.com/regulations.htm

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #515) on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 8:00 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Yes, they have rules on their page. It is the 15m distance fromt he beach areas that is the problem - that is the swimming/snorkling zone on Pink Beach p.ex. - they should adjust that to the 100m as is done elsewhere. Atlantis is the only area they may be that close

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2294) on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 8:52 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Tom

I was talking about Lac Bay rather than Atlantis etc.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2509) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 4:29 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

More complaints about Kite Boarders are included in the following link.

http://www.oldbonairetalk.com/newsgroup/messages/1022/301642.html?1162350754

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Reem (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2512) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 7:03 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Written rules, on paper or the internet, are only good if they are obeyed, and policed for rule breakers.

And only if they address ALL the problems, as Bridgette points out about a set distance from shore, or, better, a requirement to sail out in the blue water: shallow water extends more than 100 m from shore in several places along that shoreline.

Kiting on the west side is a choice made by kiters: they are free to quit kiting there any time it seems to dangerous to them. The island rules there might become onerous in their estimation but that will happen because, as in Lac, they refuse to live together cooperatively with others.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #90) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 8:55 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

This is insane, kiteboarders have but one place to kite, its a location with 'off-shore' wind and that is the issue. To call kiteboarders "arrogant" is wrong and rude, for petes sake, one beach and you all are acting like children, move on to another location or help get the kiters back in lac. I still cant understand what the issue is, is it really asking to much to have divers avoid one spot? That is the answer here, not kiters following arbitrary rules that do not account for local conditions. If the Atlantis is to precious then tell us were kiters can go? I appreciate divers, I appreciate the sport, but some of you are a bunch of selfish whiners, get over yourselves and share the road. Bonaire has to be the only place in the world that divers seem to think they can just completely disregard decades of learned safety precautions. If a diver refuses to use good judgement, refuses to use a diving flag, refuses to use a sausage, what can i say, if its not a kite it will be something else that hits you. many here are making a big deal about suggested rules on FKA or IKO guidelines, what ever happened to taking a little responsibility and read your own rules, dive spots should be marked with a flag, any diver worth his weight knows that. I know Bonaire is unique, I know that divers have been subverting the well estblished rules because of the "conveinance" that Bonaire provides, but really, take some precautions or move to another beach. Brian, Glen, I really cant believe you two, you really are showing your colors here, I use to be so interested in diving, and now I'm really turned off.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #91) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 9:01 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Glen you are full of it! Kiters were not banned from Lac for any other reason then Elvis wants the bay for his windsurfing team, and thats it. Many solutions can be implemented to avoid accidents. For the record, kiting in lac wasnt banned for any reason, not the environment, not safety, simply one mans opinion and a stupid decision based on ignorance, fear, and selfishness. While I believe In his heart he meant well, he meant to protect the fledgling interest of windsurfing, thats all.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim (BonaireTalker - Post #49) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 9:15 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

So much for a lack of bias on BT against kiteboarders.

That thread http://www.oldbonairetalk.com/newsgroup/messages/1022/301642.html?1162350754

Starts out with Dave saying:
"THUMP! THUMP! I just got hit in the head two times. My first thought was that a kite boarder had run over me. "

And then turns out it was his DIVE BUDDY that hit him in the head. Now why would somebodies first thought be "A kiter hit me" When there have been NO substantiated or unsubstantiated reports of a diver ACTUALLY being hit by a kiter in bonaire!? If I am wrong about this, please point me to a post where a diver was actually hit by a kiter.

This is EXACTLY why I posted the following much earlier in this thread, "in recent months more than a few BT'ers have almost made it sound like anytime you dare dive in the southern sites, you are likely to run the risk of getting your head run over by a kiteboarder."

Yet, nobody has actually been hit by a kiter that I am aware of, YET the belief that it is common and should be expected is propagated by threads such as the one linked above. Then he ends his post with another rant about Kiters.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #175) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 9:44 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen,

You asked :
"is it really asking to much to have divers avoid one spot?"

The point that you have missed again and again is that it is not just 'one spot' that concerns people. Kiteboarders are routinely seen in the shallows as far north as Pink Beach. I don't think anyone is suggesting that the kiters not be allowed at Atlantis, I certainly am not. I only ask that they stay out of the shallows at other sites. I am a snorkeler who had a close call with a kiter in the shallows north of Margate Bay. I am bigger than a sausage or a dive flag :-). Do you have a suggestion as to what I can do to keep kiters away from me?

Tim,
I don't know, but perhaps he thought it was a kiter because kiters had in fact been going over his head :-). You are correct that no one has been hurt yet. What some people are trying to do is to make certain that it never happens. If it does, it's likely that the injury/injuries will be serious. I believe we can make people safe without banning kiting, just controlling it. Kiters need to stay out of the shallows aside from Atlantis. If there are several people kiting, they probably need more than one chase boat. Alternatively kiting could be allowed certain times of the day but not others. There are options but until kiters like Stephen acknowledge that the onus is on them to play by the rules, discussions will continue to be heated. You may not appreciate some people's passion here, but trying to keep everyone safe is not a bad thing.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim (BonaireTalker - Post #50) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 10:07 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Alex,

I want everyone to be safe as well, BUT
If you are swimming at a depth of 18ft and get hit in the head, do you really need to look at your depth gauge to realize that it wasn't a kiteboarder that hit you?

Dave said, " quickly checked my depth gauge; 18 feet. Couldn't have been a kite board"

I would guess, not. I'm sure Dave meant it to be funny and I'm not going to rehash the discussion above, but it IS another example of bias against Kiteboarders.

Constructive suggestions would serve a much better purpose than jokes about getting hit in the head by a kiter; which just serves to propogate the belief that divers are constantly getting run over by kiters and there is no way for the two sports to get along.

On a side note, we were diving this past weekend and saw two kiters at Pink Beach. The good news? They were both at least 100yds off shore and not anywhere near where a diver would regularly surface.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2510) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 10:23 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

I posted the link to allow kiters to see the perspective of holiday makers in Bonaire now.

My comments from before
The point is that the Government has banned Kiting in Lac Bay. You will need to solve the environmental points and safety issues raised above. If the kiters can address these issues then maybe they should lobby for support for the government to overturn the ban.

If Kiters are banned (which I am NOT saying should happen) then their fate is in their own hands. These hands seem to be very uncontrolled still!

(Message edited by brianl on November 1, 2006)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #92) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 12:44 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Brian, the situation is political. not environmental or safety, this thread has gone full circle. If by the government you mean -well connected indviduals who operate a windsurfing concession on Bonaire you would be correct. All the "so called" reasons for the ban have been are false.

Jack Chalk said;

"Just to clear up one point...it was NOT STINAPA that banned the kiters from Lac...it was the government based on input by some people on the island. STINAPA was only charged with enforcing the ban. STINAPA actually tried to work out a compromise to enable the kiters to stay in Lac and utilize it at specific times recommended by the kiters themselves, but to no avail."

"Some people on the island" lets see, who has an interest in the status quo at Lac? might it be the individuals with an interests?.

OK so the environmental issue is not the reason, is that clear enough?

As far as safety is concerned, there are options and procedures, all of which would make the situation manageble, why havnt they tried? hmm, again, could it be the interest of the status quo? Nobody wants anyone to get hurt, nobody wants to see kiting banned, hmm, I wonder whats going on here....errrgh. One person, one well connected person is responsible for this, he is the only person that can do anything about it. I dont think he gives a crap about the kiting conflict at Atlantis, I dont think he gives a crap about the kiters, all he cares about is maintaining his grip on the Lac Bay, he must be pretty connected to manage this well orchestrated farse. Safety, the environment, its all a roost and your being used when you argue about this, save your breath, as long as kiting is banned from Lac, kiters and divers are going to have to manage their own solution. You want to do something about kiters at Atlantis, go to Lac say something, if you stil dont believe me suit up and go for a dive at Lac, you'll be banned too, it will be so obvious..

Brian, I assume your referring to me to me when you say "uncontrolled" I'd rather be "uncontrolled" then be used as a pawn in a "controlled" campaign to keep kiters from Lac.

(Message edited by steve_t on November 1, 2006)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2511) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 3:30 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Stephen I also said from above

Stephen

If you want to overcome the ban then the kiters need to remove the obstacles that people are using to keep you out.

This is not hearsay, just the way that things work.


By remove obstacles I mean "practically" counter the arguments including any environmental concerns which should not be marginalised.

No matter what the "politics" are, negotiation is usually an approach that works. Having ongoing reports from holiday makers about close encounters (kiters in the shallows) etc. etc. etc. usually has the opposite effect.

I am not a pawn and have freedom of speech; you appear to overrate your significance in this debate as my previous post was not directed at you specifically but more at the continuing bad reports about some of the kiters who are actually on Bonaire and not following safe procedures.

By the way it may be a good idea to be careful about posting allegations about named individuals as libel laws are also enforceable on the internet.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #93) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 5:10 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

For the record I tried to edit my post but was to late. It be better if BT gave a little more time to edits posts.

Brian, I'm still trying to figure out how to remove obstacles that dont really exist. The only thing thats going to change this is if somebody '_______' decides on changing their position. That is not likely going to happen unless this person wants to give the kids of Bonaire a chance at kiting; or if the mighty dollar determines, or if divers make a fuss and get involved.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Peters (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #115) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 6:28 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Well, if all of the reasons you're banned from Lac Bay are false and only one person has managed to keep it that way. Then until this person passes away or sells their interest I suggest you get used to the status quo because it seems like short of that nothing is going to change. You should probably just chalk this one up as one of lifes' lessons about power, politics, and how it can just be flat out unfair sometimes. From there it's up to you what you want to do. It seems to me the basic choices are either, make the most out of Atlantis that you can, find another location with favorable conditions other than Bonaire, or stay home and be happy with Cape Cod.

Btw, no matter how much arguing you do here, it won't change a single thing. You need to convince the government of Bonaire to remove the ban, not anyone here.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Tise (BonaireTalker - Post #94) on Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 8:31 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

you are correct, I will kite regardless, alls good.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill and Donna Goodwin (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #250) on Tuesday, December 5, 2006 - 5:05 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Jim - Sorry that I only just found your reasoned, intelligent analysis/summation/suggestions - best I've seen on this topic. Have you or anyone forwarded your excellent analysis from October to STINAPA? I think it would help them very much in their efforts to design an equitable, workable policy on south coast kiting. Thanks for being the voice of reason in this emotional, ongoing discussion. I've attempted a few entries on the topic on other threads that attempted to do what you have actually done. Good work.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill and Donna Goodwin (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #251) on Tuesday, December 5, 2006 - 5:09 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Oh, and Jim ... we're into hookbills too (previous decades there have been Amazons, pericas, and a military macaw - only a gregarious cockatiel at the moment)... hadn't thought about the bird/kiter issue but I can confidently assert that anytime a crow or its shadow comes anywhere near, it scares the bejeesus outta Rosie and it takes 156 minutes to settle him (yes, him) down again.

 


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